HOWEDY Phil,
"Phil Odox" <philodox@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:sc9d44pdlbv1nvpbvo7eri2jgjikciqtl1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:25:40 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen" <pstech@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> wrote:
> [..]
>>
>>You probably don't read JH's posts,
>
> No, I've been ignoring them, but it seems that that
> was a mistake after reading your post.
INDEEDY~!
> If Jerry's reading this reply (and I hope he is)
But of curse. After all, THESE ARE The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master
Puppy, Child, *****, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES,
And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Training
Method Manual Forums And Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory <{}'; ~ ) >
> I'd like to offer him a sincere apology for being rude to
> him and ignoring what he was trying to warn me of.
NO PROBLEMO, Phil, you're in EXXXCELLENT company:
Subject: Public Apology - Mr Howe - The Amazing Puppy Wizard
Public Apology - Mr Howe
Date: 2004-06-03 18:17:59 PST
HOWEDY H1R3Z of The Queen's RAF K-9 Corps,
"H1R3Z" <h1r3z@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(SPAMTRAP)phantomemail.com> wrote
in message news:c82b3m$l2r$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Well, here's something, no problems swallowing
> pride here, but this is my last day (for a while) to post,
That's too bad, H. We need intelligent caring
dog lovers who understand the nature of dogs
and their behaviors.
> and I have to leave on a note of apology to Mr Howe.
Not necessary, H.. The Amazing Puppy Wizard is grateful
for your participation in HOWER forums and looks forward
to HOWER continued discussions.
> Although I still disagree with your sometimes
> harsh attitude towards people,
LikeWIZE, H.. The Amazing Puppy Wizard is a kindly
soul, only seeking truth and justice for WON and all.
> I have read your manual (at least part of it -
> part 2 I believe), I wish to publicly apologise
> for my hasty judgement of you.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard knew you would
be an englightened contributor, an honorable
representative of The Queen's RAF K-9 Corps.
> This is in part thanks to Rocky's comments
matty is a liar and dog abuser of the lowest calibre.
> about lurking.
That's HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy
Wizard QUOTES HOWER dog lovers lying
and abusing their critters.
> I read previous posts, and posts that you
> have included from previous threads, and
> as I have already stated I dislike insults,
> BUT I do see where you're coming from
> with the attitude.
As The Amazing Puppy Wizard sees it, there'll NEVER
be any decent advice to be FHOWEND from HOWER
Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards and
ACTIVE INCURABLE LONG TERM MENTAL CASES.
> From what I have read you do indeed have a great
> concern for dogs' welfare & I commend you on the
> time & interest taken.
Study my manual and apply the techniques
to some problem dogs and you'll see HOWE
efficiently you can rehabilitate ALL behavior
problems NEARLY INSTANTLY.
The only PROBLEM is, The Amazing Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method does not mix with other methods cause
TRUST and GENTLENESS are the FHOWEndation.
> Amazing really
INDEED.
> that the very people that so dislike you here are
> responsible for making me take the time to delve
> deeper into all the trash & see What you are really
> like.
HOWER dog lovers are notoriHOWES COWARDS.
> Their eagerness to 'pounce' on any newcomer
> with an opinion of their own has caused me to
> see the 'reality' here.
HOWER MENTALLY ILL LYING DOG ABUSING PUNK
THUG COWARDS will spare nothing to defend their alleged
right to hurt and murder dogs.
> So I guess I must thank them also!
LikeWIZE, H.. The Amazing Puppy Wizard
has learned MUCH from HOWER MENTAL
CASES, especially those with degrees in
behaviorISM, like professor SCRUFF SHAKE
and his ilk.
> I looked at your website, and as I said, read
> part 2 of your WEDTM. I would be interested
> in reading the manual in it's entirety sometime.
It's only abHOWET 70 pages. But it has ALL
the answers to all behavior problems.
> So on that note, I say goodbye for now
The Amazing Puppy Wizard was lookin
forward to some in depth discussions
abHOWET trainin and behavior, particularly
as it applies to military and police working dogs.
> (I know, don't let the door hit me again, take
> my time, etc etc blah blah).
The Amazing Puppy Wizard would NEVER
recommend killfilling INFORMATION.
> I am sincere when I say good luck
The Amazin Puppy Wizard sez "dog trainin
AIN'T LUCK." "Luck is for SUCKERS," The
Puppy Wizard's DADDY.
> to you all, I truly mean it, some of you need
> it more than others ;)
Well, many of HOWER dog lovers have been
in therapy and taking anti psychotic medications
for twenty years. There's not a chance in heel
LUCK will be forthcoming in their "rehabilitation."
> I have not risen to your bait or engaged in
> hostilities with anyone, however they perceive
> me or whatever their opinion of me, but I have
> the honesty & strength to admit when I make
> mistakes, and I made one with my judgement
> of Mr Howe.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard is used to that.
> Killfile me also if that makes you all happy,
> but I will not, ever, be railroaded by people
> who lack enough intellect to answer my posts
> sensibly, without insults & unneccessary
> criticisms, JUST because of whom I choose
> to talk to.
They're only fighting to defend their lives
careers and reputations, H..
> Good luck Mr. Howe,
Dog trainin AIN'T LUCK.
> and once again my apologies for my hastiness.
NO PROBLEM. We're all entitled to mistakes,
they're an intergral part of learnin.
> I look forward to reading the whole manual
> next time I'm home.
Perhaps you'll find a couple subjects to
work the Method on and maybe you'll
re****t your success or ask The Amazing
Puppy Wizard for additional free heelp in
the unlikely event you encHOWENTER
difficulty?
> Until then...
> Adios Puppy Wizard :)
LikeWIZE, H..
G-D save The Queen!
The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
Displacement Behavior / Extinguishment Bursts /
JACKPOTS - A Relative Judgement Of A Circular
Assignment Of Thought
Date: 2003-04-11 05:45:35 PST
HOWEDY People,
Since The Puppy Wizzzard began teaching
behaviorISM here on HIS FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Forum, you've learned
MOORE than you're able to handle in WON fell
swoop.
"Only the unenlightened speak of wisdom and right
action as separate, not the wise. If any man knows
one, he enjoys the fruit of both. The level which is
reached by wisdom is attained through right action
as well. He who perceives that the two are one
knows the truth.
Even the wise man acts in character with his nature,
indeed all creatures act according to their natures.
What is the use of compulsion then?
The love and hate which are aroused by the
objects of sense arise from Nature, do not
yield to them. They only obstruct the path."
Bhagavad Gita, adapted by Krishna with
permission from His FREE copy of The
Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method Manual.
Force training JERRYIZES dogs and GETS THEM DEAD.
Every correction is like our dog lovers seeing a new
post from Jerry and every minute of crate anxiety is
like reading another "thanks Jerry, your method /
machine saved my dog's life" post from The
Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual Students...
The Puppy Wizzzard has PRESSURED
HOWER dog lovers EXXXACTLY as
HOWER DOG LOVERS PRESSURE THEIR
DOGS TO MAKE THEM HYPERACTIVE,
AGGRESSIVE, SHY and have health
disorders ike yeast ear infections
idiopathic epilepsy and all OCD behaviors.
Now you know HOWE COME professor scruff
shake's little dog masturbates compulsively
on his couch if he doesn't get his five miles
of road work every day.
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
Those who KNOW and talk to those who do not know,
appear pretty much like Jerry Howe talking dogs to
rpdb or ethics with a theologian or behavior with a
professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM, who sing the
same tune to The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME.
We're not talkin dog training noMOORE, never have
been, anyHOWE. We're talking HUMAN NATURE,
the SCENT OF FEAR.
"If You Talk With The Animals, They Will Talk
With You And You Will Know Each Other.
If You Do Not Talk To Them, You Will Not
Know Them, And What You Do Not Know
You Will Fear.
What One Fears, One Destroys," Chief Dan
George, adapted with permission from his FREE
copy of The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual.
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes so utterly
beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest? Don't bet your dog won't
tell on you...
"With him, words play no torturing tricks.........., "
John Galsworthy, adapted with permission from
his FREE copy of The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manaual.
Their behaviors reflect our words, thoughts,
actions, and training quirks. Jerry HOWE,
The Puppy Wizard <{TPW; ~ } >
The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME is the perfect
synergy of love, pride, desire, self will, greed, ego,
fear, hate, arrogance, disbelief, jealousy, shame,
embarrassment, guilt, anger, aversion, adversion,
attraction, revulsion, repulsion, change,
permanence, enlightenment, insult, attrition,
and conditioning.
I.e., JERRYIZED.
HOWER forum is going through it's extinguishment
burst just like your dogs do, at this time. HOWER
dog lovers have hit the wall and they're not goin out
quietly.
That too, is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. ALL
behavior problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.
The Puppy Wizzzard KNOWS better than to
FORCE INTIMIDATE or SCOLD a DOG. HOWE
COME would HE do that to HOWER dog lovers?
CAUSE THEY'RE INTENTIONAL or
PATHOLOGICAL LIARS, HYPOCRITES,
and SADISTS.
Let's call it tit for tat, a debt repaid, quid pro
quo, The Puppy Wizzzard's JACKPOT. This
place is a GOLDMINE for studying the complexities
of the deranged human psyche and tinkerin with it...
like HOWER DOG LOVERS EXPERIMIENT with
TOOLS to HURT and INTIMIDATE HOWER DOGS
TO DEATH.
This life and health threatening event is brought to
you Courtesy Of The Puppy Wizzzard. <(TPW;~) >
Welcome Students!
The Sound Of One Hand Clapping
When Mamiya went to the priest for personal
guidance, he was asked to explain the sound
of one hand clapping.
Mamiya concentrated on what the sound might be.
"You are not working hard enough. You are too
attached to food, wealth, and to that sound. It
would be better if you died. That would solve the
problem."
The next time Mamiya appeared before his teacher,
he again was asked what he had to show regarding
the sound of one hand.
Mamiya immediately fell over as though dead.
"You are dead, all right, but how about that sound?"
Looking up, Mamiya replied: "I haven't solved that
yet."
"Dead men don't speak, get out!," Shakumuni
Buddha, adapted with permission from His FREE
copy of The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual.
====================
>> but he almost always quotes my posts that describe what
>> happened with my dog in Janet Boss's obedience cl*****.
>> I won't go into details here (you can read his posts or check
>> the archives around mid-October 2006), but I am convinced
>> that her harsh methods made Muttley act aggressively.
HOWEver, paulie was *(AND STILL IS) an eager and willing ABUSER.
He learned it from his PARENTS.
>> One of her assistants recommended that I step on his lead as you
>> describe, while forcing him into a down position, and he sprang
>> up with enough force to knock me over into the parking lot, and I
>> lost grip of the lead as I broke my fall. Muttley used the op****tunity
>> to attack a young black Lab, and he might have killed him if I hadn't
>> grabbed the leash and pulled him off. Prior to this incident, I was
>> encouraged to parade him around with about a dozen other dogs,
>> and force him to heel by administering constant firm yanks on a
>> prong collar backed up with a choker chain. It was very frustrating
>> for me and Muttley, and I think it made him more aggressive.
OF CURSE. It's called REDIRECTED AGGRESSION:
Subject: Re: redirected aggression
Date: 4/11/07
"Janet Boss" <ja...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:janet-730AB8.17321511042007@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
seems I have been dealing with this a bit lately.
Dog to dog and dog to person,, with dogs who are
obviously overstimulated by what's in front of them.
What's in front of them varies from people at the door
to dogs in their path or directly in their face. The dogs
in question all have very poor self control.
I have dog(s) with not-so-great-natural self control,
so it's something we constantly work on. We don't
have redirected stuff going on, because we have enough
obedience to avoid it.
While I know that's the big answer for the dogs in
question as well, I'm curious what things people have
found useful to redirect/focus/gain attention from
drivey dogs or just very distracted of over-the-top dogs.
We're having success with my recommendations, but I'm
always open to something novel that may be the hot ticket.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
BWEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA~!~!~!
Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> <j...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, clicked their
> heels and said:
> Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say
> I beat dogs, choke dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks
> for your clarification.
responding to my own post, I had to go back and look
at the original post, to remind myself what "we" are all
accused of doing:
"screaming, choking,
shocking, pinching, beating
the living crap out of your dogs"
Scream? no
Choke? no
Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort
by a prong collar, go ahead, but unless you have first
hand experience with one, your opinion means nothing.
Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists
-------------------------
Here's HOWE COME:
Here's janet's CUSTOME MADE pronged spiked pinch choke collar:
http://tinyurl.com/5m6ppt
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
"J1Boss" <j1b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
Janet Boss
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL
cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog's
been sprayed in the face and the dog won't
know HOWE COME IT was MACED?
janet CONtinues:
> > My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.
> > I don't have anything against electronic bark collars, but they
> > should be used in conjunction with actually working at training
> > your dog(s).
They're DUMB ANIMALS these MENTALLY ILL LYING
DOG ABUSERS HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER.
-------------------
BWEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA~!~!~!
From: j1b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(J1Boss)
Date: 2000/10/06
Subject: Re: ****na Inu Experts : Please help!
Dogman, quoting howdy-doody:
>>This is a young puppy, hardly a threat to a kat.
> See? They just cannot conceive of a cat, for example, scratching
> out the eyes of a young puppy because it didn't want to be bothered
> by an over-exurburant puppy (are there any other kinds?).
********** Jerry's never met a puppy, He's never met a
RETRIEVER PUPPY, that's pretty clear. I have a wonderfully
exhuberant retriever puppy - love every minute of it.
My 17 year old cat, doesn't have quite the same appreciation.
Sometimes, Franklin licks his ears and Robie enjoys it. Other
times, Franklin thinks Robie's another puppy and Robie does
not enjoy that. Without my supervision, confinement is only
sensible (of course).
I've got Jer-Jer kill-filed, but the glimpes at his posts, through
re-posts, are good indications that nothing has changed.
> But if a crate is a "barrier" to training a puppy, then what
> must the walls of a SCHOOL ROOM be, eh?
*********** and don't forget cribs for crawling babies, safety
gates, doors, etc. Let's just open up the houses and let everyone
run amok!
> Ladies and gentlemen, he literally counts on many of you
> being too damn stupid or ignorant to see just how little he
> actually knows about dogs, puppies, cats, etc.
> Don't let him, eh?
> Dogman
************** It's so difficult for the newbies, since so many
of the people who DO have good advice, have killfiled him.
Tired of refuting slander and general inaccuracies in his "they're
all bad, I'm good" rants (without any actual training advice, as
usual) is a reality for most.
Are there actually people, besides Marilyn, who believe him?
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
THAT was your pal DOGMAN, another pathetic
miserable stinkin rotten lyin anonymHOWES coward.
Not so handsome, not so gentle, not so manly, not so
happy jackass, not even morrison aka dogman a.k.a.
BIG DADDY, a.k.a. tommy sorenson, sez:
"I don't know how big you are, kiddo, so this may
not be as easy for you as it is for me, but use
a little "knee action," that is, as the dog goes
charging by you, just give the dog a little bop
with your knee and ****n. Yep, really lean into it.
Even knock her over, if you can, but make sure to
make her think twice about ru****ng past you again -
- which is exactly what you want her to do.
Don't bother with scolding her, she'll get the message.
If it happens again, just REPEAT the knee action.
When she steps on your toes, just pick up your foot
abruptly and ****ge her with your knee. Again, no
scolding is necessary here, so you don't have to
worry about her "over-reacting."
I don't think this is necessarily a lack of respect
for you, just a lack of training. That is, she just
needs *more* of it."
"My objective is always to find a way that WORKS.
And if it is DANGEROUS behavior that I'm trying
to modify, behavior than can get the dog KILLED,
I will resort to ANYTHING to save him.
A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G.
Okay. Call me a cruel, inhumane, abusive bastard
if you want to, but it doesn't affect me at all.
When you've saved the lives of as many dogs as I
have, you'll learn that that's the only thing that
really matters. Saving lives and making dogs become
good citizens
At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
*not* constitute a "beating."
=====================
From: dog...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Dogman)
Date: 1999/01/15
Subject: Re: Another mouthy lab
Get this book:
"The Art of Raising A Puppy," by the Monks of New Skete
If you can't find it locally, you can obtain it
through my Web site (see below).
You'll need it for more than just the usual puppy
"mouthing" problems, anyway.
And good luck with your Lab puppy!
--
Dogman
------------------------
From: osi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Michael Erskine)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 10:09:05 -0700
Subject: My GSD bit me.
The question:
I have a four year old male GSD. He growls
at me sometimes. When he growls at me he
stares me in the face and lays his ears back.
The New Skete books say that the dog should not be
allowed to do that. They suggest shaking down the
dog by grabing the dog on the sides of his neck and
picking him off his front feet, then giving the dog the
same sort of treatment the dog would give another if
it were challenging him.
Namely getting in the dogs face and letting
the dog know you are the alpha dog.
Well, my dog bit me clearly he felt that I was not
convincing enough or he bit me out of fear.
Anyone got ideas on what to do with this dog that might
help him to decide that he wants to follow and that he
has nothing to fear from me?
----------------------
From: Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wil...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:21:14 GMT
Subject: Re: My GSD bit me.
You need to improve your acting skills. Get a werewolf
suit with blood-drenched fangs and claw gloves and THEN
go after your dog.
Knock the **** out of him and don't be afraid to crack
some ribs. Then yank the mask off and shout "SURPRISE!
IT'S ME!" I guarantee you and your dog will have a new
relation****p based on mutual respect.
Keep in mind that the monks of New Skete
were pre-Lon-Chaney.
Charlie
-----------------------
The SAME problems occur with PSYCHOLOGICAL force and
intimidation, ONLY MORE SO, according to the latest RESEARCH
from Harvard and UCLA <{}: ~ ( >
> Don't blame yourself for that, Paul. Janet made you believe
> she was a knowledgeable authority figure, and according to
> Stanley Milgram's research most if not all who allow themselves
> to be put into a pupil/authority situation obey that authority figure
> even if what they're told to do conflicts with their personal
> conscience. Check out the Milgram experiments by following
> this link to get a better idea of what I'm talking about if you're
> not already aware of them. It's a good read.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiments
Of curse I'm familiar with that. HOWEver, paulie *ENJOYS*
HURTING and INTIMIDATING innocent defenseless dumb
critters DESPITE that THAT was the CAUSE of his TWO
DEAD KATS DEATHS:
HOWEDY paul e. schoen you pathetic miserable stinkin
rotten lyin animal murderin punk thug coward active
accute chronic life long incurable malignant maliciHOWES
mental case ignorameHOWES,
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:47e35abf$0$11054$ecde5a14@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Jenn" <jenn.e...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>
news:21e23d6f-d264-495d-94c1-a213bb318e9d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Mar 20, 3:31 pm, <DelusionalDimensionsRecovery...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> wrote:
>> What the hell is this? Is it just me or is this super psychotic?
>> (These are the people your parents warn you about lurking
>> around on the internet)
> Almost all usenet groups have one or more crazies.
INDEEDY. HOWEver, the animal groups got ALL crazies,
a.k.a. The Gang Of Pathetic Miserable Stinkin Rotten Lyin
Animal Murderin Punk Thug Coward Active Accute Chronic
Life Long Incurable Malignant MaliciHOWES Mental Case
IgnorameHOWESES an WON regular poster who has IDENTIFIED
EXXXPOSED and DISCREDITED them, AS PROVEN by
their own POSTED CASE HISTORIES <{}: ~ ( >
> Jerry is convinced that his method works 100% for
> any dog (or cat, or spouse, or slug),
Not quite, paulie. I've never tested my methods on slugs. You're
the closest inverterbrate to a slug that I've worked with, and my
methods DID work for you an Muttley, HOWEver, just like jenn,
YOU DIDN'T LIKE not hurtin and intimidatin your dog <{}: ~ ( >
AND IT WON'T WORK ON DEAD KATS either.
HERE'S PROOF:
Re: Rejected for obedience training (even evaluation)
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message news:
468f2c62$0$21031$ecde5...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote in message
news:1183778458.405615.146000@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> HOWEDY paule e. schoen,
> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:468dc6d8$0$11048$ecde5a14@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Now that my evaluation of Jerry's methods are complete
> You NEVER COMPLETED the first EXXXORCISE
It was unsuccessful when Muttley simply ignored
the constant praise and became confused. Maybe
that method works on high strung, needy dogs that
need to be calmed down.
> Yeah. HOWE COME you won't TRY using the NON
> VIOLENT methods I teach FOR FREE, paulie?
Your non-violent methods for dogs ring hollow
when you use verbal violence against other dog
owners, thus triggering their own opposition
reflexes. I will try other non-violent methods
that communicate what is expected of the dog.
And I don't believe that proper use of a prong
collar or choker chain are evil and physically
hurtful.
[snip verbal abuse]
So you think it is effective to withold praise,
but offer it as a bribe to get people to follow
your methods? Or promise you will stop beating
them if they obey your commands? Yet never do
it for a dog?
Paul and Muttley (almost fully recovered from
Arbitrary Praise Neurosis)
-------------------------
From:
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laborat...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sat, 07 Jul 2007 06:24:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Rejected for obedience training (even evaluation)
HOWEDY paul e. schoen,
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message news:
468f2c62$0$21031$ecde5...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laborat...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote in message
> news:1183778458.405615.146000@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> HOWEDY paule e. schoen,
>> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
>> in message news:468dc6d8$0$11048$ecde5a14@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Now that my evaluation of Jerry's methods are
>>> complete
>> You NEVER COMPLETED the first EXXXORCISE
IN FACT, you NEVER STUDIED The Manual AS INSTRUCTED.
You see paulie, I was EXXXPECTING folks like you to come in
here BULL****IN me and therefore The Manual was written
in such a way as to be able to DIAGNOSE the BULL****ERS
from the STUDENTS who simply have difficulty with their dogs.
You're a BULL****ER and a DOG ABUSER and a COWARD.
> It was unsuccessful when Muttley simply
> ignored the constant praise and became confused.
You mean, when Muttley became UN AFRAID
of you jerking choking and intimidating him and
was waiting for you to resort to jerking and chokin
him again like HOWE you had PREFERRED to
do pryor to TRY bein KIND to your dog?:
From: <>
To: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Damned Family Leader****p Exercise -
Re: Am I expecting to much
Hi Jerry,
When I talked to you on the phone to order to machine
for daughter's new pup, I told you that I had an older
Chessie. I rescued him at 9 years old and have had
him for 3 years.
It's funny, but I thought I'd try some of your book
training with him. Where I used to say "come" and
then say "good boy" when he obeyed, I have reversed
it with a "good boy" first.
It really does work.
He was very confused at first, wondering
what he had done to get the praise.
But it really gets the attention and distracts him from
whatever he may have going through his brain when
he hears it.
Dogs are funny, but people are too. Can't wait to get
the Doggy do Right, etc.
Thanks,
N
> Maybe that method works on high strung,
> needy dogs that need to be calmed down.
The Method WORKS on ALL critters, even
wolves, children and ladies even better than
cookies and ****ny objects <{}: ~ ) >
>> Yeah. HOWE COME you won't TRY using the NON
>> VIOLENT methods I teach FOR FREE, paulie?
> Your non-violent methods for dogs ring hollow
> when you use verbal violence against other dog
> owners,
"Other dog owners", paulie? But not YOU.
You're gonna QUIT TRAINING Muttley withHOWET
HURTIN HIM on accHOWENTA I'm CRUEL to "other
dog owners" who JERK CHOKE SHOCK CRIPPLE and
MURDER their dogs?
> thus triggering their own opposition reflexes.
Seems you dislike "OTHER DOG OWNERS" being
verbally assaulted even more than Muttley dislikes
being jerked and choked, eh?
Would you be kindly enough to CITE where I was
CRUEL to you when you STOPPED HURTIN your
dog?
> I will try other non-violent methods
There AIN'T NO "other non-violent methods"
unless you mean BRIBERY / clicker idiocy:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon that
an expected reward not received is experienced as a
punishment and can produce extensive and persistent
aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)."
> that communicate what is expected of the dog.
robin CRIPPLED TWO of her dogs thanks
to her "COMMUNICATING":
From: Robin Nuttall (robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: Wobblers Syndrome
Date: 2001-01-08 14:35:28 PST
Ted Trostle wrote:
> I have a 9 year old female Doberman with this condition.
> Currently she is still mobile, but needs help with stairs.
> Surgery is not a option because of its expense, long term
> personal care and the surgery cannot fully correct the
> problem.
> I am looking for acupuncture treatments, chiropractic
> care etc. by Vets in Pennsylvania or Maryland.
> Please send me useful contact info or ideas that
> are known to be beneficial. I am not looking for a
> 100% cure, but I would like to provide a improved
> and better quality of life for this great dog.
Welcome to my world! As the owner of not one,
but two dogs severely affected with Wobblers (CVI,
Cervical Vertebral Instability), I can relate.
------------------------
BWEEEAAAAHAHAHAAA!!!
Wobbler's is CAUSED BY jerking on your dog's collar.
LIKE THIS:
From: "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:26:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Warning about Dog Trainer
There are pullers, then there are PULLERS. Viva
is one of the former, and has learned to walk
very nicely on a loose leash. I'm convinced that
Cala is genetically incapable of walking on a
loose leash.
She's almost 18 months old now, and we have been
working on the issue since I first put a leash on
her. She's so high drive that *nothing* I do is
as reinforcing to her as pulling. I can stand still
till I keel over--she just stands there at the end
of the leash, pulling as hard as she can. I can do
sneak aways until I am dizzy, we just get yo-yo
effect ("okay, I'll pull THIS way now!).
I can clicker her for loose leashes until my thumb
falls off--and she still pulls.
A click and treat is not as reinforcing as the world
around her. Our only real solution at this point is
the pinch collar, which keeps her from totally wearing
me out, or hurting herself by actually flipping at the
end of the leash.
I have a feeling this is something that she will only
develop with age, and will come regardless of any
training I do or don't do.
And yes, I've trained many, many dogs to walk on
a loose leash, but not this one...
Robin Nuttall.
-------------------------
SEEE???
> And I don't believe that proper use of a prong
> collar or choker chain are evil and physically
> hurtful.
NOT ONLY is it PHYSICALLY dangerHOWES
and CRUEL, it's EMOTIONALLY CRIPPLING.
If you read the recent thread "Laryngeal Paralysis"
you'd notice that EVERY VICTIM with LP is owned
by a dog choker like yourself. LP is CAUSED by
jerking and choking dogs as you'll see in this video
from elegy who MURDERED her newest "RESCUE
dog" for attacking her when she bribed crated jerked
choked and intimidated IT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzBtxevvcFs&mode=user&search=
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:58:58 GMT
Subject: Re: Thinking Dogs
I was just thinking, I can't believe all the effort that's
been expended responding to this guy when he's clearly a
troll, and maybe even a persona of TPW. At least there's
been some good discussion of how clicker training is
successful and teaches dogs to think...
> "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:txeVe.324546$x96.272690@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Yep. Jen keeps saying, "Oh, I don't mean anything
> > negative" while continuously slamming people for
> > "cruel" methods that she can't even define.
Those who slavishly devote themselves to one type of
training and who condemn others are the poorer for it.
I clicker train. I use choke collars. I shape behaviors.
I use drive work for focus and intensity. I use pinch
collars. I use harnesses. I use food. I use positive
and negative punishment.
Some of these things I use frenquently. Some very
infrequently. I tend to focus my training in the
quadrants of positive reinforcement and negative
punishment, and am far more likely to eliminate
undesired behavior through ignoring it than any
other way.
I'll also grab my young dog by the collar, lift
her up on her back feet, and tell her to KNOCK
IT OFF in no uncertain terms when the little snot
gets into overdrive and bites me.
If you want to discuss training, discuss it here.
But be willing to listen as well as talk. And
please stop top posting.
Robn Nuttall.
From: "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:00:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Does your dog do this?
"Andrea" <andrea.sto...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote in message
news:dMB0b.13637$_P1.4916@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> The "sorry" look and licking is appeasment behavior.
> Dogs to it to avoid retribution, not because they
> really understand how to apologize. Really, you
> should just teach her some bite inhibition so that
> you don't get hurt, and she doesn't have to worry.
I totally agree, but with some dogs that's far
easier said than done.
Cala is finally showing signs of trying to keep
her teeth to herself, and it's been a constant
battle since she was a baby puppy. She's now 17
months old.
I have often been a total mass of bruises from
her releasing overdrive into a nip. Not that
she's ever full-out bitten me, but trust me,
those nips and pinches can be extremely painful.
The higher drive the dog is, the more difficult
it can be to deal with the issue.
Robin Nuttall.
----------------
> [snip verbal abuse]
paulie SNIPPED diddler's POSTED CASE HISTORY of
jerking choking and shocking timmy's a.k.a. buzzsaw's
dog Max to train IT to be NICE to kats <{}: ~ ( >
> So you think it is effective to withold praise,
WHO SEZ "withHOWELD praise"? YOU maybe.
THE METHOD SEZ CONSTANT INTERMITTENT
PRAISE and PRAISE IN ADVANCE.
You're acting like a stubborn little girl or needy woman.
And if you think witholding praise is CRUEL and
JERKING and CHOKING dogs is KIND, then
PERHAPS you're a candidate for frontal lobotomy
or ***ual reassignment surgery like michael ball
was tryin to get but was REJECTED?
> but offer it as a bribe to get people to follow your
> methods? Or promise you will stop beating them if
> they obey your commands? Yet never do it for a dog?
So, you're gonna PUNISH ME for bein CRUEL
to SADISTS who WANT to HURT their dogs and
WANT YOU to HURT YOUR DOG so's you'll BE
LIKE THEM, HURTING YOUR DOG?
THAT'S NORMAL here abHOWETS, paulie.
We're dealing with PSYCHOPATHS, SADISTS and
SCHIZOPHRENICS, and your posts PROVES IT.
> Paul and Muttley (almost fully recovered
> from Arbitrary Praise Neurosis)
NO PROBLEMO, paulie. I'll STILL WORK WITH
YOU. The least you could do is TRY to finish your
"EXXXPERIMENT" with NOT HURTING Muttley
accordin to The Method and get your own 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS
otherWIZE I'll get the heel HOWETA THIS BUSINESS.
Perhaps your problem is you think BEIN NICE
to your dog someHOWE diminishes your
masculinity, eh, paulie?
PERHAPS you wasn't much of a man to begin with.
<SNIP>
>> Since then I have used very gentle methods with him,
THAT'S A LIE. I can CITE paulie's POSTED CASE
HISTORY *(as always) if you LIKE <{}: ~ ) >
>> and although he still pulls excesively,
Dogs PULL to ESCAPE their ABUSERS CHOKIN THEM.
>> he has proven to be a very sweet dog who ignores other dogs'
>> snarkiness and shows remarkable calmness and stability.
Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
90 From: Sionnach
Date: Mon, Oct 9 2006 1:19 am
Email: "Sionnach" <rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
*I* was thanking the Deity that the NCR trail
was not my choice of hiking area today!!!!
Sorry, Paul, but the gloves are now off, because if I HAD
chosen the NCR trail today - rather than another local trail-
you would have been putting ***MY*** beloved dogs at
risk of serious injury or death. ***MY*** DOGS.
What the ****ING HELL is **WRONG** with you???
Your dog, which you have repeatedly admitted you can't
control, just made a near-lethal unprovoked attack on
another dog in obedience class, and you TOOK HIM
OUT ON THE TRAILS WHERE THERE ARE OTHER
DOGS?????
You do that again, when my dogs are around, and he attacks
one of them, you won't have to worry about having him put
down - I will either break his spine or choke him to death
right then and there.
I'm dead ****ing serious, Mr. Schoen.
----------------------
>> There are times I have to be a bit firm with him,
paulie means when his BRIBERY didn't work:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon
that an expected reward not received is experienced
as a punishment and can produce extensive and
persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)."
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV
"Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative
physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of
Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy
of Sciences, Moscow:
The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and
freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared
with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the
resistance to coercion," respectively, described by
contem****ary ethologists.
On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose,"
conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive
emotions arising in connection with the perfection of
a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at
a given moment, serve as the reinforcement.
The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a
phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction
as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was
demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the
state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in
rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical
activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e.,
by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man.
Simonov PV</h4>
Publication Types:<ul><li>Review</li><li>Review,
tutorial</li></ul>PMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681</blockquote>
<doctype>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=2215892&am
p;form=6&db=m&Dopt=bNeurosciBehavPhysiol1990May-Jun;
20(3):230-5
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And
Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The
Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies.
"All animals learn best through play," Lorenz.
B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment
Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused,
actually has been proven not effective at long-
term behavioral change, and creatures will find
other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom
and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter
1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states:
If we no longer resort to torture in what we call
the civilized world, we nevertheless still make
extensive use of punitive techniques in both
domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for
good reasons. Nature if not God has created man
in such a way that he can be controlled punitively.
People quickly become skillful punishers (if not,
thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative
positive measures are not easily learned.
The need for punishment seems to have the sup****t
of history, and alternative practices threaten the
cherished values of freedom and dignity.
Fear involved with punishment causes frustration:
with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy.
Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive
reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior
have proved very valuable.
----------------------------
Author and professional dog trainer LeeCharlesKelley wrote:
Thanks, Jerry, that's a helpful bit from the guy
who started it all. This shows what we've been
saying: that teaching the dog to play fetch,
regardless of its usefulness in the eventual
search part of the training program, is a
powerful motivator and reinforcer.
Of course these idiots (pardon my being blunt)
don't see using food and clickers as being a
form of coercion. Maybe they've been hypnotized
by Karen Pryor, et al:
Freeze Frame <{}: ~ ) >
From: canis55 <cani...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 1999/09/28
Subject: Dear Marilyn Re. Ness
Dear Marilyn,
I just visited your updated site. The two Ness pages are great.
Freezing the video frames to reveal the emotional impact a
leash correction has on a dog was a wonderful idea.
Lee Kelley did something similar to a Brian Kilcommon video.
The difference is we were focusing on the emotional impact a
leash correction has on the trainer. When you do this to a training
video you can clearly see the tremendous emotional charge some
of these trainers are getting from hurting dogs.
It's a strange business, this dog training. I wonder what motivates
any of us to engage in it. I'm suspicious of anyone who says they
do it because they love dogs. I know a lot of people who claim to
love what dogs represent to them, and yet they don't become trainers.
I don't think this is because they love something else more.
I think there is a difference between loving what dogs represent
to us and loving what training them creates in us or even creates
in them for that matter.
It's a complicated process and perhaps many of us have lost sight
of what we're doing. I read books and articles that matter of factly
explain how to systematically inflict pain on dogs in an effort to
create a desire to perform tasks that I often see dogs performing of
their own accord. I know many of these behaviors can be shaped
and encouraged to the same degree of reliability without all the
violence and pain.
Where they can't (if that's the case), I wonder why we think
a dog should perform a task that is so repugnant to its nature,
that we must resort to violence and coercion to compel them
to participate.
Maybe I have far too much respect for dogs, but when I read
this stuff it sounds like slavery and involuntary servitude to me.
I can't see much difference between what we're doing to them
(for their own good) and what my country men did to the African
peoples for nearly half a century.
It's hard for me to accept that I'm surrounded by so much
madness, but I have to go with my heart on this one. Most
of what we demand from dogs--if not all of it--will be offered
willingly and enthusiastically if we only learn how to request
it in a manner they can comprehend.
If it turns out that I have to attack a dog to get it to do or to not do
something, then maybe the dog isn't supposed to do what I think it
should.
The whole thing's so complicated that I can't really express it. I
just know I don't like some of the stuff I'm seeing or reading about.
--
I trains'em as I sees'em.
----------------
>> but dogs really want to please people, and they live for praise.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
>> I'm sure he was abused and neglected when he was a puppy,
NOT so much as since DOG LOVERS KIDNAPPED
him and he was "RESCUED" by paulie <{}: ~ ( >
>> and then he had to fend for himself on the streets in a tough
>> neighborhood, until he was picked up by animal control. Then he
>> barely escaped being euthanized, and he went through other
>> difficult times in my care until we bonded and became the good
>> buddies we are now.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> I'm so glad to know that Muttley came through and found the
> courage to bond with you after suffering Janet's cruel treatment.
DON'T BET ON IT, Phil. If Muttley has his "druther's" he'd be
back on the street rummaging garbage cans and beggin meals
and shaggin the *****es just like HOWE ANY DOG would
PREFER than to be jerked choked and intimidated by "DOG
LOVERS" like paulie who 'occasionally' "have to be a bit firm
with him" <{}: ~ ( >
> Your bond with Muttley is stronger than anything Janet will
> ever experience with a dog, and while she and others like her
> will likely scoff at your calm approach to training dogs, I've no
> doubt that she looks upon you with a jealous eye.
You got THAT right, Phil <{}: ~ ( >
> There's no room in the dog training world for the cruel dullards
> like her who believe physical force, fear and intimidation is the
> key to successful training, but they still manage to find their way
> into it one way or another, unfortunately.
From: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 00:02:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Your Training Modality is Driving Your Dogs Crazy
Leah:
>>Is there something wrong with being curious?
Morrison:
>You're not curious, Leah. IMO, you're just wishy-washy.
Kelley:
I don't have the same history that you seem to have with Leah,
but I hardly think being open to exploring new ideas qualifies as being
"wishy-washy". To me it shows intelligence. But then, from what I've
seen, you've demonstrated a singular kind of black-and-white mentality
and a highly ignorant closed-mindedness.
Morrison:
>You keep thinking that there's some "new" method out there
> that will VOILA!, magically transform you into a great trainer,
> and overnight, too.
>
>It just doesn't work that way.
Kelley:
Actually, that's *exactly* how it worked with me. Within the
first day of using these techniques I went from becoming a run-
of-the-mill dog trainer to being pretty damn good, if I do say so
myself, and all simply by testing the techniques, just to see if
they worked.
I've said from the beginning that if I can get the kind of amazing
results I do when I'm not really a dog trainer at heart, but a writer,
then someone who's really a dog trainer at heart would become a
far better trainer than I am instantly, just by using these methods.
Somewhere along the line, however, I discovered a dirty little secret
about the mentality of most dog trainers: they only *became* trainers
because they liked the feeling of power and control it gave them. If
that's the case with you, then you definitely wouldn't like natural dog
training because it ultimately teaches a dog how to control his own
behavior. In fact in some ways, it forces you to turn your need for
control over to the dog because the method only works when you put
your trust in a dog's natural instincts instead of fighting against them
all the time. That's because when you put yourself in alignment with
a dog's instincts, the dog will naturally obey you under any and all
cir***stances because group harmony and cooperation, when properly
nurtured, are the most fundamental aspects of a dog's nature.
I came across the following quote recently, and though I have no idea
who Edward Hoagland is, I think what he says here speaks volumes:
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to
be semi-human.
The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming
partly a dog." - Edward Hoagland
Leah:
>> This "praise the dog when he misbehaves" thing keeps coming
>> up, and nobody has been able to explain it to me.
Morrison:
>That's because no one can.
Kelley:
Actually, Jerry Howe explains it pretty well. And as for the incident
I related where I praised my dog when he found a juicy chicken breast
and my praise caused him to drop it, and subsequently got him to stop
scavenging altogether, merely by praising him everytime he found
something, the answer is pretty clear. He didn't pick up that chicken
breast because he was hungry, he did it because he was looking for
something to do that would satisfy an inner emotional need, relating
to his instincts.
When I praised him, suddenly and very enthusiastically, he dropped
the chicken breast because the praise provided him with more emotional
satisfaction than the chicken breast did at that particular moment.
You could look at this as being an example of pure operant conditioning,
if you like (though you'd be wrong), but it would still mean that you
would have to give up your beliefs about what praise is and how and why
it works, and you don't strike me as someone who's capable of even
*questioning* your beliefs, let alone capable of giving them up.
Morrison:
> every single method out there is based on CC and/or OC. That's a fact.
Kelley:
No, it's not a fact. The only reason it seems factual to you is because
the basic premise of behavioral science is tautological in nature (and
also because, IMO, you have a tiny mind). In my estimation it's more
likely that there are little green men on Mars than that what you think
is operant conditioning is what's really taking place when a dog learns
*anything*. Dogs do not learn things by association or by repetition or
by trial and error, but through their emotions, pure and simple. Even
Pavlov said: "Positive emotions arising in connection with the perfection
of a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at a given moment,
serve as the reinforcement." Of course, even Pavlov got it wrong on the
most basic level, since there really is no such thing as a reinforcement,
but that's another story for another day.
>> Good luck with your new dog.
DOG TRAININ AIN'T LUCK, Phil, IT'S SCIENCE:
"LUCK is for SUCKERS. NEVER make a SUCKER'S
BET," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY <{}: ~ ) >
>> Paul and Muttley
>
> Thank you very much. We're having so much fun together, and
> his training is coming along just fine. Hopefully, if I get the luck
> you've wished upon us we'll bond as closely as you and Muttley
> have very soon.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
HOWEDY mztook,
From: <mzt...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
To: <dogtrainerhotl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 1:10 PM
Subject: A Relative Judgement Of ACircular
Assignment Of Thought = Re: [HotList] ...
> --- In dogtrainerhotl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Kathy Kail <curlcoat@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > Oh, this guy is Robert Redford? Kathy Kail
> ah, Kathy... you made me laugh... thanks... i
> needed a wee bit of joy this morning...
Well, I'm glad we've had some entertainment.
Life is too short, so have a good time!
> poor ole' Monty... besides clickers, i think this
> guy is the most discussed (make that HOTLY
> discussed) topic on dog training lists...
Well, the clicker thing can be EZily explained. I'm
not a clicker fan, BTW.
> my response to Mr HOWE's theories of approaching
> training from a science slant is: Watch it buddy...
INDEED?
> i once had 7 theories of dog training... i now have
> 7 dogs and no theories...
So, what is your secret for success? Is it patented?
> ok, not exactly true... i only have one dog now...
> but... i still haven't found one thing that works
> for all the dogs all the time...
Oh. IOW, you're still EXPERIMENTING. Yeah,
I know HOWE that is, been there, done that, and
now I teach that... EZ, huh?
Only took me 40 years. You busy?
> you can train some dogs some of the time with that
> method... and... you can train some dogs all of the
> time with that method... but... you can't train all
> dogs all of the time with that method...
Till you met Your Puppy Wizard...
> last time i checked, there were no cookie cutter
> dogs... there were no cookie cutter trainers... if
> there were, there would be no need for lists such
> as this...
CONGRATULATIONS!!! You've hit the JACKPOT.
> no need for clickers...
You CAN use a clicker, just not HOWE it's TAUGHT.
> no need for bait...
Right, bait is only a prop for poison proofing.
> no need for ecollars...
For WAAAAT? You want to train your dog to
naturally want to do everything you ask, BURNIN
HIM ain't gonna make him WANT to cooperate...
so you got to FORCE the dog, which MIGHT BE
O.K... if it worked. IT DON'T.
You force train a dog and when IT refuses to work,
you GOT TO HURT IT EVERY TIME or you've
BROKEN THE METHOD.
So, no, no moore shock collars, no moore pronged
spiked pinch choke collars, no moore GL fastened
so tight you can't get a couple fingers into it.
> shucks, we'd all be bored to tears...
Just think of all the FREE TIME you're gonna have
when it doesn't take you MONTHS to train a dog
as Your Puppy Wizard's students re****t 'in
milliseconds?."
> isn't that part of the challenge??...
Dog trainin ain't no challenge to Your Puppy
Wizard. Your Puppy Wizard specializes in
training problem dogs all over the whole wide
world from sittin right here stark ravin nekkid.
> working with what works for the particular dog
> and that particular handler??...
CONGRATULATIONS!!!
YOU'VE HIT THE JACKPOT!!!
> sign me up for a BIG bag of tricks...
Tricks, mztook? Tricks are for kids! Check it out!
This is FOR REAL. I'll train ANY dog anywhere in
the world in RECORD BREAKING TIME from sittin
right here, stark ravin nekkid.
I'll bet my paper slippers on that, professional dog
trainers.
> i sure could use more...
You got it.
> ruthy
Study your FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog
Training Method manual and do all the exercises
EXACTLY as instructed and ASK ME if you need
help. I'm available 24/8, but please, study the
manual first so we can have some common
understanding with which to WORK.
For FREE.
BOTH THESE GUYS GOT DEAD DOGS
CAUSE THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE THEIR
Puppy Wizzzard TILL IT WAS TOO LATE:
From: misty (Momi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: Jerry, why non-physical praise?
Date: 2002-01-23 07:46:16 PST
Beth wrote:
> So, jerry's techniques didnt' work for Peach?
Never had a chance to try them on her... I was still
using the e-fence and chains to keep her in the yard.
The suggestions I received here to keep Peach home
were: build a fence... wasn't going to happen.. we plan
on putting a modular home here within the next few years...
put more fence at the top of the pen I used so both dogs
could play bitey face w/o tangling, and similar suggestions.
Jerry was the only one to mention border training... but he
was kook supreme ;-P So I ignored him... no killfiles with
webtv.. at that time Jerry had his own troll, somewhat like
Candace, so the group was not very conducive to learning
anything. At one point I even b*tched about Jerry.
By the time I tried out Jerry's manual Peach had
already ran away.
Not very good at the google groups search but you'll find my
first post at "runaway dog message 30" within that thread is
mention of the dogs taking off and being gone for 2 days. I
stopped posting for a bit... my middle boy was devastated that
his dog was gone... Zelda came home but not her mom.
The next few posts from me were ones about/to Jerry.
Then Jerry made the WETM accessible for webbes, I put it in
my e-mail ( no storage otherwise on webby unless you put stuff
on a webpage) and read it, read it and read it.
Once I understood what the concept was, I implemented it on
Zelda. It worked and I now have a great housedog!
I only regret that my own distrust of Jerry caused me to lose
another wonderful dog. Peach was an absolute gem with little
kids. I and my boys still miss her. Sometimes I still look
to see if she came home when we get back from trips. Maybe
Peach would still have ran away... I don't know and never
will....
~misty
-------------------
"misty" <Momi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote in message
news:16990-3CAB1F8C-1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive.
I do know she's not here with us. I really can't
blame anyone here for her loss. I'm the one
who ignored your advice.
I did it because of how you write/wrote.
I was unwilling to accept the idea
that my using a shock collar could have
any bearing on Peach not wanting to stay
home.
Up until I started using it my main concern
had been keeping my dogs in their own yard.
Once I started using the e-fence...well,
then my concern became how to keep
them from running off for days on end.
I lost valuable training time becoming
embroiled in the anti-shock debate and
the "Jerry sux" tirades.
I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in
the world now <g> A Wits End> Trained dog,
one who is completely housetrained,
doesn't chew up stuff, stays in the yard,
and doesn't bark all the time.
IOW a great companion and friend.
Thanks Jerry!
"misty" <Momi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:6946-3B6337A1-329@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this
Spring. Two dogs, two collars We now have
one dog and no collars.
Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not
want to come back in the yard and would run for days.
The last time, Peach didn't come back home.
I used the Wit's End Training Manual to
learn how to train my dog. She is now
border trained. A few minutes each day
reinforces her desire to stay in the yard.
She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop
her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes
when we walk around the yard.
I can not say loud or long enough how
much I hate the e-fence and its collars.
If you can't get a regular fence then you need to
train your dog. I will never rely on an electronic
collar to keep my dog in our yard again.
The price was too high:-(
~misty
From: Momi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(misty)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:44:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Anyone tried the Wits End Training manual?
I used the Wit's Ends Training manual to teach myself how
to interact with Zelda. The first read through made no
sense to me...the second time through, things clicked and
the little lightbulb glowed.
I trained Zelda to stay in the yard, not chase cats, to come,
sit ,down, stop chewing toys and to be quiet when she barks
at things she hears outside.
I don't care if 99% of the manual came from 99 other trainers...
I needed the info, it was offered free of charge and any questions
can be asked of Jerry.
One thing about his method, although you can "spot" train
with it, it works best by a pyramid approach.IOW start
at the beginning and go through the exercises in the order
he has them wrote.
The part about "non-physical praise" confused me until I
tried a little experiment. I petted Zelda and told her
what a good girl she was...she enjoyed it, tail wagging.
I then put my hand away from her (behind my back) and
praised her...she got very wiggly, ****ged me with her nose,
pawed at me and wanted more praise. Not very scientific,
I know, but it was interesting to me how excited she got.
I find that I'm starting to use Jerry's method to "train"
my kids as well:-)
~misty
My "daughter" http://community-2.webtv.net/Momisty/ZeldaAnneArensdorf/
My sons http://community-2.webtv.net/Momisty/Arensdorf14Acre/
From: Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wil...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:13:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone tried the Wits End Training manual?
On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:44:25 -0500 (CDT),
Momi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(misty) wrote:
> I find that I'm starting to use Jerry's method to "train" my kids as
> well:-) ~misty
> My "daughter":
> http://community-2.webtv.net/Momisty/ZeldaAnneArensdorf/
> My sons: http://community-2.webtv.net/Momisty/Arensdorf14Acre/
Hi Misty!
I had just about exactly the same experience with Jerry's manual.
I had visited quite a few dog-training web sites, and, while they
didn't recommend anything too harsh, they all emphasized that
I must "assert my dominance" over the pup.
Anytime I tried doing that (just once or twice) it produced a
distinctly negative result... The pup got scared and ran away.
When I took the approach of simply making myself into the most
im****tant and desirable thing in her world, she responded incredibly
well. Now I can even break off a rabbit chase instantly (which I do
NOT want to allow, as I live in a rural area with chickens and
livestock) just by calling her once in a calm, affectionate voice.
Your kids and your dog are adorable, BTW!
You can see my pup at
http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy
Check the "more pictures" link -- like your dog, Holly
is more than happy to do an "alpha rollover" when I use
the gentle, non-confrontational approach Jerry recommends.
Charlie
================
From: ms...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Mark Shaw)
Date: 27 Aug 2001 23:00:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone tried the Wits End Training manual?
In article <3532-3B895199...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
Momi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(misty) wrote:
> I needed the info, it was offered free of charge
> and any questions can be asked of Jerry.
This is not true, unless you're willing to kiss his, uh, ring.
If you're not, he considers you his enemy -- no matter how
you really feel about him -- and will just abuse you.
Of course, his sheep have always ignored
this and will probably continue to do so.
--
Mark Shaw (and Maggie)anti-spam: change 'bang' to 'not'
------------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
<"Terri"@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> dogsnuts wrote:
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his
> posts and watching him extract his soggy foot
> out of his mouth! Out of these MILLIONS, I've
> only seen 2 naive childs come forward and
> actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive
childs since I freely admit to having read and, I
hope, understood enough of the manual and it's
counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of
Marilyn Rammell to believe and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant
barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of
supposedly adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with
the nagging idea that if people like them had been
posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to
hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our
arms while he was given the needle and having to
hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a
dog into good behavior. Naive is believing that
people that hide behind fake names are more
honest than people that use their real names.
Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders
and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY,
j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have
studied and lived by their craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see
kindergarten level insults for what they are. Really
stupid is believing that people like Jerry Howe and
Marilyn Rammell are going to just go away because
you people act like fools.
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea,
and I don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward
> and actually admit to buying and having success
> with his little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day
and take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use
and testing. You would never believe the results, so
you'll never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man
> coming by Jerry's posts deserves to get what
> is sure to be coming to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and
Longsuffering Wife and Rollei will just have to get
what we deserve, eh? As Joey (Dogman) says,
"poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
===============
Abuse / Fear / Aggression / Hyperactivity / Shyness /
Depression / Suicide Attempts AIN'T Genetic Problems,
They're SPIRITUAL PROBLEMS,
Passed On From WON GeneratiHOWEN Of Abuser
To The Next,
Like The 100th Monkey Wa****n Fruit In The Stream.
After A While It's Not Just NORMAL, It's -OBLIGATORY-
To Do OtherWIZE Would Be
DISRESPECTFUL
Of Your Parental Teachins.
The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME Is the Perfect Synergy Of
Love, Pride, Desire, Shame, Greed, Ego, Fear, Hate, Reflex,
Self Will, Arrogance, Ignorance, Predjudice, Cowardice,
Disbelief, Jealousy, Embarrassment, Embellishment, Guilt,
Anger, Hopelessness, Helplesness, Aversion, Attraction,
Inhibition, Revulsion, Repulsion, Change, Permanence,
Enlightenment, Insult, Attrition And Parental / ReligiHOWES /
Societal CONDITIONING;
*YOU ARE*
THE CRITTER YOU WAS TRAINED.
It Is The Perfect Fusion Of The Word..., In The Physical.
There Are NO GRAY AREAS
Between
RIGHT And WRONG.
A DOG Is A DOG;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A GOAT Is A GOAT;
As A FERRET Is A FERRET;
As A MONKEY Is A MONKEY:
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Cir***stances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
WELCOME TO The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing, Majestic Grand Master Puppy, Child, *****, Birdy, Goat,
Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES, And Horsey Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE
WWW Wits' End Training Method Manual Forums And Human
And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory.
I'm Jerry Howe, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master
Puppy, Child, *****, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey,
SpHOWES, And Horsey Wizard, Director Of
Trainin an Research <{}: ~ ) >
Here's your own FREE COPY of The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master
Puppy, Child, *****, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES,
And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Training
Method Manual:
http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard/777witsendmanual.htm
There you will find ALL the FREE information you need
to pupperly handle raise and train your pets and family.
Just follow the instructions PRECISELY and ASK me if
you need any additional FREE HEELP <{}: ~ ) >
From: George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Proposed article for Wikipedia
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006
The Amazing Puppy Wizard is the cognomen of a dog behaviorist,
Jerry Howe, of Orlando, Fl. Howe's primary teaching is that
dogs deserve unconditional love, respect, and attention and
that by providing these emotional needs dogs will regulate
their own behavior.
Howe is bombastically antagonistic to rewarders, but he
is aggressively hostile to punishers - he refers antagonists
to B.F. Skinner, Mary Cover Jones, and J.B. Watson and
especially to Samuel A. Corson when they mistakenly
annunciate behavioral principles to sup****t their use of
punishment.
Punishment always deranges behavior, says Skinner,
Jones, Watson, Corson and Jerry Howe!
Howe developed a sonic device which calms dogs and has
been broadly tested in a wide range of different situations.
The present author is a Who's Who recognized psychologist
who was asked to evaluate Howe's device by a former student.
Howe provided the author with a device, without
charge, and said device worked as re****ted.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
drv...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cross reference to Jerry Howe, etc.
Jerry, the difficulty with these ignorant dog molesters
is that they cannot read. Negative reinforcement is no
response by the trainer.
There is positive reinforcement, an action which is followed
by an increase in the targetted behavior (usually called
"reward" which is precisely and technically a misnomer),
negative reinforcement is the absence of any response.
Negative means 'No'.
Skinner's last book, "***ULATIVE RECORD" reviews this
thoroughly. http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/nr.html
Negative reinforcement is stopping an aversive reinforcement
according to this author. Read it, they have a sense of humor!
There are four forms of systematic reinforcement:
do nothing (negative reinforcement)
reward the behavior (positive reinforcement)
punish the behavior (aversive reinforcement)
after habituating the subject to punishment,
stop puni****ng (relief of aversion, which is negative reinforcement).
Logically, failing to reward after habituating a reward
is also negative reinforcement. Actually intermittent
rewards work better than consistent, invariable rewards,
so there is actually another two categories. Invariable
reinforcement and random reinforcement (on varying schedules).
Punishment is AVERSIVE REINFORCEMENT.
Actions which cause the animal being trained to avoid,
avert, cringe away from. Pavlovians always responded
to American psychologist's inability to reproduce Pavlov's
results with dogs with the comment, "American's don't LOVE
their dogs". If you ever observed a Russian psychologist
working with a dog, you'd instantly see the difference.
American psychologists were wooden, robot-like,
wanted to be "scientific".
This meant to them that they should display no
affection, or any other emotion with the subjects.
When a Pavlovian dog started to misbehave or fail to respond,
doggie was taken out of the equipment, and taken home for a
loving vacation, with much TLC. Sam Corson, Pavlov's last
student, demonstrated the same relation****ps at Ohio State.
Interestingly the first page of results for Sam Corson,
dog behaviorist is loaded with Jerry Howe quoting Dr. Von.
heh heh heh
Dr. Von
Oh, by the way, you once had a pompous fellow say that
Dr. Von was a figment of your imagination. I don't
normally mention this, but I have been listed in Who's
Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big books,
Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in Medicine
etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date.
These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and
you can't get yourself into them.
GvH
-------------------------
"The day may come when the rest of the animal creation
may acquire those rights
which never could have been withholden from them
but by the hand of tyranny.
The question is not can they REASON,
nor can they TALK,
but can they SUFFER?" -
- Jeremy Bentham
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised
for the good of its victims,
may be the most oppressive.
Those who torment us for our own good
will torment us without end,
for they do so with the approval of
their own conscience." -
- C.S. Lewis.
"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny",
Aeschylus (525BC-456BC),
Agamemnon.
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George
All truth p***** through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-Arthur Schopenhauer
"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.
"If you've got them by the balls
their hearts and minds
will follow,"
John Wayne.
ANY QUESTIONS, People?
"Ye shall know the truth,
and the truth shall make you mad." -
~Aldous Huxley.
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
"Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain!"
-Friedrich Schiller.
INDEEDY.
AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE!
In Love And Light,
I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours,
The WORLD'S CRUELEST Trainer,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
*M-A-J-E-S-T-I-C*
*G-R-A-N-D*
*M-A-S-T-E-R*
Puppy, Child, *****, Birdy, Ferret, Goat, Monkey
SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard <{) ;~ ) >
HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU <{}; ~ ) >
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092 (Call ANY TIME)
http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard
E-mail:
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|
