Hello paul e. schoen,
"Paul E. Schoen" <pstech@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message news:
484b99a1$0$4992$ecde5a14@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "Julia Altshuler" <jaltshuler@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:Av6dnRSO6bYe4dfVnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> I'm reminded of when we got Cubbe from the shelter.
So called rescues and shelters surgically ***ually mutilate innocent
defenseless dumb critters, WHICH CAUSES dog and child aggression
as well as life-long risks of orthopedic and endocrine DIS-EASES and
age related canine dementia.
So called rescues and shelters ofen prohibit placement of dogs in
homes without fences yet have no policy prohibiting shock fences
so long as they're backed up with a physical fence; they would do
well to screen so called adopters better to avoid those beloved lost
and abandoned dogs falling into the hands of lyin dog abusin mentally
ill cowards like you and liea, who believe that jerking choking
shocking
and bribing dogs is apupriate for their well being.
>> Her card said that she'd be great in a one-dog household.
It took Cubbe just a few weeks till she began TURNING ON liea
for jerking and choking her on a pronged spiked pinch choke collar.
The surround shock system came later, after Cubbe's attempts to
ESCAPE her abuser, which she still accomplished despite her shock
system surrounding liea's entire premises, including the front door,
which caused Cubbe to attack two innocent defenseless children and
liea's only real life friend for standing in her SHOCK ZONE and like
your own "RESCUE" dog Muttley, nearly ended in liea MURDERIN
her own dog, as so many of your fellow dog lovers here have done, for
the same reasons <{}: ~ ( >
>> Since we were only looking for one dog, that suited us, and we
>> didn't think more about what it meant. We learned about her dog
>> aggression shortly after we got her home.
liea re****ted her neighbor's Pit Bull dogs for barking at Cubbe as
they were restrained behind their own shock fence untill their dog
abusin ignorameHOWES owner MURDERED THEM.
>> It was a disappointment.
Cubbe's fear of liea hurting her provoked Cubbe to escape her yard
and bolt through the shock at her front door and take refuge inside
of a neighboring Rottweiller's yard who likeWIZE, was CONfined
behind a shock fence. The Rottie kept liea at bay so she couldn't
retrieve her own fearful dog who refused to come back to her.
>> We hadn't wanted to own 2 dogs, but we assumed that we'd
>> be taking her to dog parks, visiting friends with dogs, having
>> dogs over for play dates, trading dog care when either we or
>> a neighbor went out of town.
What liea means is, she was PREYING Cubbe would introduce
her to some new friends, as she has only WON real life in person
friend (Ellie, whom Cubbe attacked), EXXXCEPT for matty a.k.a.
Rocky, whom she visits annually when she and her domestic partner,
Jim, visits his ailing mommy in Montreal or Quebec, I can't recall
exactly where they live.
Cubbe DID make friends with a child at the park, whom she
proceeded to ATTACK and was taken to the HOWEspital and
Cubbe was legally quarrantined <{}: ~ ( >
>> I suppose it's turned out O.K.
Yeah:
"Might Cubbe Be Ready For Harsher Training Techniques?
I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.
"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.
Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then.
She*trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.
Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's
never been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming.
Is it time for that?
What might I look for to tell?"
"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshu...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> After talking with the vet yesterday and watching
> Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking
> is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue
> keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything
> up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological--
> and the vet agrees.
> --Lia
"Things are beginning to get much worse day
by day and the vets seem unable to help:
http://tinyurl.com/fbqnw
THAT'S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by
MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according
to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying
Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE
LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and
ASYLUM ESCAPEES.
"Cubbe Got Out In The Neighborhood Leashless: It Was
Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With Her Usual
ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To Give Cubbe
A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap. I don't even think she broke
the kid's skin and as far as I'm concerned, it was the kid's own
fault. Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got
Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that,
even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite
since Cubbe did mean to do it.
I guess I should just learn from it and never let Cubbe
greet someone like that again, but I'm horribly torn up.
I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now
the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even with
kids when we meet them in the neighborhood."
AND THEN Cubbe ATTACKED TWO CHILDREN
standing in her SHOCK ZONE inside her HOWES
and an innocent child at the park!
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
>> We've worked with the problem to some extent and managed it more.
Oh, INDEEDY~!:
"We got Cubbe in 1998. I immediately took her to a dog training
class that I guessed would be similar to the one Jim took Sheppe to.
Right from the start I was unhappy. I was following instructions to
the best of my ability, making no progress, and was pretty miserable.
I started posted here then. He Who Shall Not Be Named started
posting at the same time, and the group was in a stranglehold
while people dealt with that.
I finished that 6 week course and tried another. That one was at a
nearby community school. The teacher was better, more observent,
and still teaching leash pops. I wasn't willing to call them a bad
thing because they'd worked for Sheppe. I hadn't realized yet that
they weren't going to work for Cubbe.
"I was starting to realize that Cubbe's troubles getting along with
other dogs was going to prevent her from learning anything in group
cl*****. "
"They also suggested I ask my veterinarian for suggestions
for in-person training. I got in-person clicker training help
and started having fun with Cubbe practically overnight.
Cubbe and I both took to it."
"I think of the way Cubbe is so awful at the vet. It is embarrassing
to have to muzzle your dog, but from Cubbe's perspective, she's just
defending herself, and I've come to admire her for that. All she
knows is that woman is trying to hurt her, and she's taking reasonable
measures in defense. The bad news is that the vet re****ts no
improvement in her fear during the exam and shots.--Lia"
"Cubbe is highly sensitive. She knows she's going to be hurt and
wiggles and squirms and might bite if she weren't muzzled. we put
her through a number of tests for parasites and had to knock her out
to look into her ears. There's also the problem with looking at
Cubbe's
teeth when she's not anesthetized. Jim and I can open her mouth with
no problem, but she's a wild woman at the vet.--Lia"
"Cubbe is a fear biter, but not, I think, an incorrigible one. She
needs a muzzle at the vet. I have to be super careful with her around
children. She's snapped at children (never breaking the skin). I
frequently have to tell kids that they can't pet my dog. (That's why
yesterday's story about her being subjected to a patting was a happy
unusual one.) She's always on a leash outside. We're managing the
situation and doing our best. She's also my dog, and I'm not about
to put her down for her crimes.
I'm guessing that the idiot whose dog attacked the kid feels the
same way about her dog as I feel about mine. I wouldn't say that
the situations are the same, though. What that dog did to that child
is on a whole 'nother scale. --Lia "
"I'm extra nervous because Cubbe is so fearful about being
cornered and of quick movements. I know Cubbe can snap
in fear. She's always had issues with cats and children that
weren't accurately represented on her intake sheet either.--Lia"
"I guess I should just learn from it and never let Cubbe
greet someone like that again, but I'm horribly torn up.
I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now
the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even with
kids when we meet them in the neighborhood."
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
BWEEEAAAHAHAAAA~!~!~!
>> She's better with other dogs than she used to be but not trustable
>> around them. She's never been in an all-out dog fight, but that's
>> because we're so careful to keep her away from other dogs.
Well, that's NOT EXXXACTLY true, either:
From: Julia Altshuler (jaltshu...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Cubbe re****t: Chief
Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST
Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie.
Jim has been running into them on his morning walks
with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing
re****ts about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.
Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any
other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever
seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.
I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy
with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on
the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one
that doesn't involve the companion****p of her own
species. Jim's re****ts were encouraging.
Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate.
We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief
again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs
normally do.
Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my
amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard
and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention
to Chief, but there was no trouble even though
she and Chief were close to each other.
Both dogs seemed more interested that their
people were handing out treats (for good behaviors
like SITs).
Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2
dogs would like to chase them together. He did not
consult me about this hare brained scheme.
Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe
decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced
fighter so I don't know if attack is the right word. She
was snarfing, making growly noises, jumping on Chief,
had her mouth on Chief's neck (on his back, behind his
ears) and basically not looking friendly, but I think if she'd
wanted to do real damage, she would have, and Chief
was fine, nary a hair out of place.
Naturally with us all right there, we were able to
intervene in seconds.
A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd
like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away
or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance.
Jo and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and
apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.)
Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people.
Might she have been guarding the balls Jim brought
out? Or was it the fact that we let our guard down for
a few seconds and she got scared of Chief when we
all weren't practically on top of her?
Or did we push her too far by leaving her and
Chief together for too many minutes when a
few seconds would have been better for a first try?
Or other theories?
Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with
Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting
Cubbe live a dogless existence?
--Lia
----------------------
>> Nothing too horrible has happened, but that's partly because of
>> luck. I wish we'd been warned about the dog aggression problem.
Actually, "He Who Shall Not Be Named" DID warn liea *(AND YOU
TOO, paulie) what she was doin to her "RESCUE" dog Cubbe would
make her fear aggressive and neurotic, but liea PREFERRED to RE****T
"He Who Shall Not Be Named" to His ISP for HURTIN HER FEELINS
and then started posting daily and weekly WARNINGS for new reader
NOT TO BELIEVE ME.
And you got your own just desserts, didn't you, paulie...
>> I can only imagine the potential for tragedy if someone gave a
>> people aggressive dog to owners who weren't warned and prepared.
>> It's downright irresponsible, does nothing for the dog, and could hurt
>> a lot of people.
Yeah, it'd be a real shame if more adoptive doggy owners had similar
incidents with their RESCUED dogs as you and liea have had. LUCKY
THING most dog owners don't PREFER to HURT and INTIMIDATE
their own dogs; that seems to be an R.P.D.B. CONvention <{}: ~ ( >
> Do you think dog aggression is an innate trait that will always be
> present, or is it something that can lessen or even disappear under
> the proper conditions of training and socialization.
That's ABSURD, paulie. Dogs are PACK critters. Opposite ***
aggression is UNHEARD OF in a NORMAL environment.
ALL aggression IS CAUSED BY MISHANDLING / ABUSE, therefore
IT CAN BE CURED NEARLY INSTANTLY simply by NOT JERKING
CHOKING and SHOCKING your dogs, paulie.
> My only real experience has been with Muttley (and Lucky),
> so I can only refer to their attributes.
You GOT RID of Lucky on accHOWENTA you couldn't jerk
choke intimidate an crate them into bein PALS. You brought
Muttley to janet to train him so you could GET RID OF HIM
because you an janet COULDN'T TRAIN HIM not to attack
your DEAD KAT Photon. Your other DEAD KAT Meshon
GOT DEAD for similar reasons <{}: ~ ( >
> Muttley came from an environment where he ran freely as Alpha
> male in a pack of 3 other dogs, one of which, a Rottie, who was
> apparently his "*****" and carried his puppies when she was spayed.
That was kindly of their RESCUERS.
> There was also a smaller dog, and a male black Lab who was very weak.
> I only observed Muttley and the Rottie together when we sprung them
> from AC and had them together for a short time at a friend's place. I
did
> not notice any aggressive behavior between them, but presumably they
> had settled into their ranks in the pack.
That's ABSURD.
> Once I got Muttley, he only seemed to express cat aggression,
THAT'S on accHOWENTA you was jerkin an chokin him
to teach him to be PALS with your DEAD KAT Photon.
IS THIS paulie's DEAD KAT Photon?:
http://tinyurl.com/2qr9ry
Did paulie's DEAD KAT run HOWET on
paulie an his RESCUE dog Muttley??
Hey! I think I FHOWEND him on the side of the
road JUST LIKE in the picture, but withHOWET
the sign.
Is he white an red?
If you don't want him back maybe I can keep him?
I think he's still good. He's up the road a piece from
here an there's a little on the other side of the road
there not far from here.
You want him back to make sure he gets a good HOWES?
He still looks pretty good. A tad lonely maybe. Just like in
the pic, EXXXCEPT MOORE of him in MOORE places.
Same profile, HOWEver.
BWEEEAAAAHAHAAHAHAAA!!!
> and that seemed to be only when Photon would run away.
You mean like HOWE Meshon done for the same reason?
> He seemed cool with a cat at the vet's.
THAT'S on accHOWENTA he knew you'd jerk an choke him if he wasn't.
> After I had had him for perhaps a month, a friend visited with her
> small female dog, and Muttley seemed to get along with her OK.
> After having him for about 3-4 months, I took him on a walk where
> he encountered several other dogs, and on one occasion he seemed
> to have a problem with another dog, and he may have snarled and
> snapped a bit.
If I remember correctly he pulled you to the ground and
threw off his custom made pronged spiked pinch choke
collar.
> Around that same time I took him on the NCRR trail, where he
> interacted well with one or two small dogs and also a young child.
Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
90 From: Sionnach
Date: Mon, Oct 9 2006 1:19 am
Email: "Sionnach" <rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
*I* was thanking the Deity that the NCR trail
was not my choice of hiking area today!!!!
Sorry, Paul, but the gloves are now off, because if I HAD
chosen the NCR trail today - rather than another local trail-
you would have been putting ***MY*** beloved dogs at
risk of serious injury or death. ***MY*** DOGS.
What the ****ING HELL is **WRONG** with you???
Your dog, which you have repeatedly admitted you can't
control, just made a near-lethal unprovoked attack on
another dog in obedience class, and you TOOK HIM
OUT ON THE TRAILS WHERE THERE ARE OTHER
DOGS?????
You do that again, when my dogs are around, and he attacks
one of them, you won't have to worry about having him put
down - I will either break his spine or choke him to death
right then and there.
I'm dead ****ing serious, Mr. Schoen.
----------------------
> The next time Muttley socialized with any dogs was when I took
> him to meet Janet at the SPCA, and I don't recall any problems,
> but I don't think he was allowed to interact much with other dogs.
> Once he started the lessons, there was only a brief time for random
> socialization, and I only recall one other dog that seemed to be just
> generally agrssive and snarly, and we were generally warned to stay
> away.
Yeah. If your "trainer" knew what she was doin she'd have introduced
them immediately and trained them to be PALS NEARLY INSTANTLY.
> Muttley's first real expression of dog aggression was when he
> suddenly lunged at another dog sitting maybe 10 feet to my side,
> and it came totally without warning, as far as I could tell.
That's MALARKEY, paulie. I TOLD YOU SO, LONG IN ADVANCE:
In the followin SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH STUDY you may
substitute pronged spiked pinch or slip choke collars for shock
and add PUNISHMENT, SCOLDING, CRATING, and offering
and witholding bribes, rewards, attention, and affection:
Psychological Effects
At issue is the question, --Do electronic training
devices elicit psychological responses?
"This section cites several research studies in which the
psychological impact of the use of electronic training devices
was analyzed. It is difficult, at best, for anyone to determine
the full psychological effect of these devices or training methods
until we can agree on exactly what constitutes a stress signal in
a domestic dog. Not only do none of the researchers agree on
what it is, but it varies from dog to dog.
It is even more difficult for humans to determine the full effect
of shock on a dog (or any animal) due to the animal's hard-wired
need to hide pain in order to survive in the wild.
Training dogs with the help of the shock collar: Short and long
term behavioral effects. (Schilder, M. & van der Borga, J. (2004).
Applied Animal Behavior Science, 85, 319-334).
The goal of this study was to determine the behavioral changes in
dogs during training using electronic training collars. Thirty-two
dogs were divided into two groups, each receiving both general
obedience and protection training.
One group was trained with shock collars and the other group
without shock collars. The dogs trained with the shock collars
displayed signs of stress: lowering of body posture, high-pitched
yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirected aggression, and
tongue flicking.
It was also noted by the authors that, even during play and relaxed
walking, the group of dogs trained with shock collars continued to
show signs of stress while in the company of their handler.
The authors concluded that shock-collar training is stressful;
receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs; and the shock
group of dogs evidently learned that the presence of their owner
(or his commands) announced the reception of shocks, even
outside of the normal training context.
They suggest that the welfare of these shocked dogs is at
stake, at least in the presence of their owners.
This study has come under considerable fire because the experience
of the handlers and dogs is not clear, and the level of shock is not
stated. With that said, it does suggest that dogs are stressed by the
experience of being shocked during training.
---------------------
THAT'S HOWE COME YOUR DOGS GOT PROBLEMS.
> Janet said that there was a similar incident with another dog earlier
> in that same spot, and conjectured possibly that there might be some
> scent there that caused it.
THAT'S INSANE:
Subject: Re: redirected aggression
Date: 4/11/07
"Janet Boss" <ja...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:janet-730AB8.17321511042007@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
seems I have been dealing with this a bit lately.
Dog to dog and dog to person,, with dogs who are
obviously overstimulated by what's in front of them.
What's in front of them varies from people at the door
to dogs in their path or directly in their face. The dogs
in question all have very poor self control.
I have dog(s) with not-so-great-natural self control,
so it's something we constantly work on. We don't
have redirected stuff going on, because we have enough
obedience to avoid it.
While I know that's the big answer for the dogs in
question as well, I'm curious what things people have
found useful to redirect/focus/gain attention from
drivey dogs or just very distracted of over-the-top dogs.
We're having success with my recommendations, but I'm
always open to something novel that may be the hot ticket.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
> Of course, the following week was the infamous "incident" involving
> a young black Lab. I don't know if the other dogs he snarked at were
> also of similar appearance, but perhaps there had been some history
> between him and the one that was in his pack.
You mean, the pack where they "had settled into their ranks in the
pack."?
Can that possibly make sense even to you, paulie?
> About a week after that, I took Muttley on the trail, where he
> encountered several dogs, and IIRC they first started growling
> at him, and he may have responded in kind, but I was rather
> upset about the prospect of having him euthanized, and my
> memory is not clear.
Perhaps THIS will refresh your memory, paulie?
Here's HOWE COME Muttley WENT INSANE and your
DEAD KAT Photon RAN HOWET on you an GOT DEAD:
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
Here's janet's CUSTOME MADE pronged spiked pinch choke collar:
http://tinyurl.com/5m6ppt
"J1Boss" <j1b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
Janet Boss
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL
cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog's
been sprayed in the face and the dog won't
know HOWE COME IT was MACED?
janet CONtinues:
> > My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.
> > I don't have anything against electronic bark collars, but they
> > should be used in conjunction with actually working at training
> > your dog(s).
They're DUMB ANIMALS these MENTALLY ILL LYING
DOG ABUSERS HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER.
-------------------
> There was probably several more months during which he had little
> contact with other dogs, but when he did, there was no problem.
Perhaps that was after you learned all about the OPPOSITION REFLEX?
> Since then, he has met lots of other dogs, and rather consistently
> it has been the other dog that has acted snarky first, and in general
> Muttley has just ignored their actions and has been happy enough
> to move on.
SHAAAZZZAAAMMM??
> So, was Muttley ever really dog-aggressive?
HOWE often do you observe street dogs attackin each other, paulie?
It's nearly UNHEARD OF.
AIN'T IT <{}: ~ ( >
> And if so, has he just grown out of it,
THAT'S ABSURD, paulie.
> or has his more stable environment with me, and additional
> socialization, made him more confident and no longer dog-
> aggressive?
PERHAPS it's on accHOWENTA you wasn't JERKIN an CHOKIN him
on janet's custom made pronged spiked pinch choke collar, paulie?
> His time with Lucky was his most intense experience with another
> dog, and it was hard to tell just what was going on when they growled
> and barked and tangled with each other.
No, it wasn't, paulie. You was ABUSIN them to make them PALS
JUST LIKE HOWE you done with your DEAD KAT Photon.
> It seemed that no real damage was ever done, and it was probably
> just rough play, but I was afraid to take the chance to leave them
> together unsupervised for long periods of time.
Didn't seem like they was PLAYIN by your description and of
curse, they'd of got along JUST FINE if you wasn't standing
there threatening to jerk an choke them and offering and witholding
bribes to make them PALS:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV
"Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative
physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of
Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy
of Sciences, Moscow:
The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and
freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared
with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the
resistance to coercion," respectively, described by
contem****ary ethologists.
On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose,"
conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive
emotions arising in connection with the perfection of
a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at
a given moment, serve as the reinforcement.
The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a
phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction
as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was
demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the
state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in
rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical
activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e.,
by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man.
Simonov PV</h4>
Publication Types:<ul><li>Review</li><li>Review,
tutorial</li></ul>PMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681</blockquote>
<doctype>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=3D2215892&am
p;form=3D6&db=3Dm&Dopt=3DbNeurosciBehavPhysiol1990May-Jun;
20(3):230-5
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And
Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The
Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies.
Author and professional dog trainer LeeCharlesKelley wrote:
Thanks, Jerry, that's a helpful bit from the guy
who started it all. This shows what we've been
saying: that teaching the dog to play fetch,
regardless of its usefulness in the eventual
search part of the training program, is a
powerful motivator and reinforcer.
Of course these idiots (pardon my being blunt)
don't see using food and clickers as being a
form of coercion. Maybe they've been hypnotized
by Karen Pryor, et al:
Freeze Frame <{}: ~ ) >
From: canis55 <cani...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 1999/09/28
Subject: Dear Marilyn Re. Ness
Dear Marilyn,
I just visited your updated site. The two Ness pages are great.
Freezing the video frames to reveal the emotional impact a
leash correction has on a dog was a wonderful idea.
Lee Kelley did something similar to a Brian Kilcommon video.
The difference is we were focusing on the emotional impact a
leash correction has on the trainer. When you do this to a training
video you can clearly see the tremendous emotional charge some
of these trainers are getting from hurting dogs.
It's a strange business, this dog training. I wonder what motivates
any of us to engage in it. I'm suspicious of anyone who says they
do it because they love dogs. I know a lot of people who claim to
love what dogs represent to them, and yet they don't become trainers.
I don't think this is because they love something else more.
I think there is a difference between loving what dogs represent
to us and loving what training them creates in us or even creates
in them for that matter.
It's a complicated process and perhaps many of us have lost sight
of what we're doing. I read books and articles that matter of factly
explain how to systematically inflict pain on dogs in an effort to
create a desire to perform tasks that I often see dogs performing of
their own accord. I know many of these behaviors can be shaped
and encouraged to the same degree of reliability without all the
violence and pain.
Where they can't (if that's the case), I wonder why we think
a dog should perform a task that is so repugnant to its nature,
that we must resort to violence and coercion to compel them
to participate.
Maybe I have far too much respect for dogs, but when I read
this stuff it sounds like slavery and involuntary servitude to me.
I can't see much difference between what we're doing to them
(for their own good) and what my country men did to the African
peoples for nearly half a century.
It's hard for me to accept that I'm surrounded by so much
madness, but I have to go with my heart on this one. Most
of what we demand from dogs--if not all of it--will be offered
willingly and enthusiastically if we only learn how to request
it in a manner they can comprehend.
If it turns out that I have to attack a dog to get it to do or to not
do
something, then maybe the dog isn't supposed to do what I think it
should.
The whole thing's so complicated that I can't really express it. I
just know I don't like some of the stuff I'm seeing or reading about.
--
I trains'em as I sees'em.
----------------
"All animals learn best through play," Lorenz.
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) re****t a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are re****ted to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated.
Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well
established in research than the various dynamic
therapists."
Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of
programmed systems for learning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST
SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers."
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966).
Some clinics have re****ted ELIMINATION of the
need for child THERAPY through changing the
clinical emphasis from clinical to parental
HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents tem****arily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill
School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back
In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They
Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their
Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK!
The Embry Study:
"While some may find it strange that reprimands
might increase the chances of a child going into
the street, the literature on the experimental analysis
of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention
to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of
more inappropriate behavior.
Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason
with their children about da****ng into the street will
likely to have the opposite impact.
Reprimands do not punish unsafe behavior; they reward it."
Source:
"Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to
Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic
Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Research Re****t
Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project."
B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment
Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused,
actually has been proven not effective at long-
term behavioral change, and creatures will find
other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom
and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter
1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states:
If we no longer resort to torture in what we call
the civilized world, we nevertheless still make
extensive use of punitive techniques in both
domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for
good reasons. Nature if not God has created man
in such a way that he can be controlled punitively.
People quickly become skillful punishers (if not,
thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative
positive measures are not easily learned.
The need for punishment seems to have the sup****t
of history, and alternative practices threaten the
cherished values of freedom and dignity.
Fear involved with punishment causes frustration:
with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy.
Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive
reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior
have proved very valuable.
----------------------------
Why Do You Reward The Dog For Being Bad?
Was:
Punish Dogs Children SP-HOWESESWith PRAISE,
Unconditional LOVE, TRUST, And RESPECT
<{) ; - ) >
Always praise the dog to show him that you affectionally
sup****t or love him. Praising the dog has nothing to do
with what he has just done, it has to do with your
relation****p with him.
"Good dog" means "I love you, dog".
If the dog is anxious, then you make certain that he
knows that he is in a safe and trusting environment.
You praise and admire him.
Correction is the opposite signal, you are my enemy,
and this results, quite naturally, in the dog behaving
aggresively - why not, you've declared that you are his
enemy.
Why does paradoxical reward work?
The dog defecates on the floor. You come up and say
"Good Dog" you love and praise him.
THE DOG KNOWS YOU LOVE HIM.
The dog defecates on the floor because he is anxious.
No wild wolf, jackal, or coyote defecates in his den.
If he defecates in his den its because a bear is outside
trying to get in and eat him.
The dog knows that it is stupid to
defecate where he eats or sleeps.
Don't you?
If the dog feels safe he'll behave as if he
is safe, no pooping on the living room floor.
Almost all maladaptive behavior is due to fear, anxiety,
expectation of disaster. Correct the situation, and the
dog behaves fluently like a ..... Dog!
Punishment deranges behavior, it is never never never appropriate.
Love the dog.
Praise is never punishment, praise is like giving a
piece of steak. If you give a piece of steak to a dog
after he defecates on the floor he'll stop defecating
on the floor.
Fondly, Dr. Von
----------------
> Having her crated for much of the time may have even created a
> worse situation. When I took Lucky to a PetSmart adoption event,
> she did seem to have snarky issues with some other dogs, even
> more so than Muttley, but I had only had her for about a month or
> two.
That's curiHOWES. Aggression can be EXXXTINGUISHED
NEARLY INSTANTLY simply by DOIN EVERY THING
EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE you prefer.
> Food for thought...
INDEED?
> Paul and Muttley
Here's some FOOD for THOUGHT, paulie:
Coprophagia STARTS with PUNI****NG a puppy for HOWEsbreakin
mistakes and by lockin IT in a box and ignoring ITS cries. If you
PUNISH
him for eatin poop you'll INCREASE his OBSESSIVE COMPLULSION.
LIKE THIS:
HOWEDY matty,
Rocky wrote:
> Simon said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > I have two dogs and my English Setter has been eating
> > feces, both his own as well as my other dog's feces. On
> > walks, he will eat other dog's feces as well.
>
> This is very common.
Yeah. It's a NEUROTIC behavior LEARNED from bein
PUNISHED for ****in in the HOWES, matty.
> All I can suggest is the following:
Your own dog GOT THE SAME PROBLEM, REMEMBER matty?
> Immediately pick up the poo in the areas over which you have control.
You mean, INSTEAD of just TRAINING the dog NOT TO EAT
****, in a couple moments of using non physical praise, matty?
> On walks, keep him on a leash and pay attention.
THAT NEVER WORKS, matty.
> Try a different food.
THAT'S INSANE, matty.
> For what it's worth,
What it's WORTH is YOU GOT NO ADVICE. Your own DEATHLY
ILL DOG Rocky GOT THE SAME PROBLEM on accHOWENT of
you ABUSE him, matty. What it's WORTH are DEATHLY ILL and
DEAD DOGS, matty.
> no matter the reason he started eating poo,
You got NO METHOD to TRAIN the dog NOT TO DO IT, matty.
> he now likes it and it's become a habit you have to break.
You got any TRAININ suggestions, matty?
> You probably won't have to keep him on leash forever,
You think the dog will FORGET to eat poo when IT can't be
forced and jerked and choked not to do that someMOORE?
> just until you've taught a good recall or a good "leave it."
HOWE is THAT gonna TRAIN the dog NOT TO EAT ****, matty?
> My Rocky was/is a poo eater,
SHAAAZZZAAAMMM?
> though now only when it's winter frozen or sun dried -
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
> both are avoidable situations.
HOWE, matty? HOWE do you AVOID FROZEN / DRIED ****, matty?
> As to watching your Setter on a 24/7 basis,
> of course that's not possible in most situations,
So you LOCK THE DOG IN A BOX, matty.
> but your *care* should be 24/7.
That so?
> That is, when he's not supervised, he should
> be in a situation where he can't do what you
> don't want him to do.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:e55s2t$40t$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Amen Brother Matt!! :-)
--Marshall
warta.matt wrote:
> So, guess what troll, you may have inadvertantly helped
> someone for a change, despite your best efforts.
Yeah. Sometimes that can't be heelped, like EATIN POOP
and masturbating on your couch pillows, warta.matt:
From: Marshall Dermer
Date: Tues, Dec 21 1999 12:00 am
Email: der...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Marshall Dermer)
In article <tfR74.1$W64....@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Jerry Howe"
<j...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> writes:
> Lemme aks you sumthin, doc? When you punish your dog, do you find
> that he masturbates more frequently after such instances? (referring
> to your post about your dog using a pillow to get himself off)
First, I punish behavior, not dogs. Second, I rarely issue
corrections.
Third, as time goes on my dog uses the pillow less frequently.
I would say he uses it about once a month. Finally, I'm not really
concerned about my dog's masturbating; I don't find such dog
behavior offensive.
Eating dog poop, for me, is another story.
And the rate of that behavior has
also diminished with time. :-)
--Marshall
Here's FIVE cases of COPROPHAGIA
CURED NEARLY INSTANTLY simply by DOIN EVERYTHING
EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE you pathetic
miserable stinkin lyin animal murderin MENTAL CASES PREFER.
From: lolajo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(lolajo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: My greyhound becoming bully of dogpark,help?
Date: 2004-01-07 01:15:04 PST
What is wrong with "The Puppy Wizard"?
I know his posts are a little wacky but his sound
distraction technique has worked very well for me.
After using traditional training with mixed results,
I was able to stop my dog from jumping up, eating
poop, begging from the table and excessive barking
using his methods.
Lolajoker.
--------------
Subject: to Jerry Howe
From: MArtog
Date: Wed, Jan 17 2001 12:51 pm
Email: MArtog <mar...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Just wanted to say thanks. The method you told me
to stop my dog from eating my other Labs sh-t in
the backyard has worked well. She has also improved
greatly when off leash out in the woods.
She still sniffs (ofcourse), but I rarely need to stop
her from anything else. I've always been diligent about
watching her, and cleaning up the yard, but ya just
can't be there every second. And she is quick!
So, thanks again for the advice.
I feel more confident now when I turn my back.
And to all you folks going yea, sure, right.
THIS IS NOT A TROLL POST.
HE gave me advice. It worked. Plain and simple.
Nothing more, nothing less.
So Jerry, allthough I don't lurk here, I'm sure
you're still putting up with DogButt and his ilk.
So good keep up the good work!
Off course DogButt will read this, even thoe it doesn't
have his name on it. Cause he thinks he owns the group.
So to you DogButt.........Well,,,,never mind.
You're already a loser. I don't need to tell you that.
Please feel free to correct my spelling/grammer, etc.
Yes, goodbye, good riddance, blah blah blah.
Later.....
MArtog
----------------------------
From: Paul B (NOSPAMpaulbou...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: Dog eats poo!
Date: 2000-12-05 00:40:48 PST
I used sound distraction to stop my 2 dogs eating cow poo
during walkies. I posted here a while ago explaining how I
managed to control them from eating it but there were a lot
of sceptics. If your interested I'll be glad to tell you
what worked for me, just let me know and I'll post a thread
on this NG.
Paul
--------
From: Paul B
Date: Sat, Oct 21 2000 2:18 am
Email: "Paul B" <NOSPAMpaulbou...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
The sound distraction and praise method he uses is VERY effective,
I use those techniques on my dogs and the results are great. From
teaching a dog to recall to preventing unwanted behaviours (****
eating, eating the cats food, growling when taking a bone from a
dog, jumping up, even escaping from the property, any behaviour).
To say sound distraction and praise methods don't work is pure
ignorance.
I can understand you not liking Jerry and being pissed off with
the posts he submits but please keep things in context and don't
slam a technique just because you can't stand the person suggesting
using it.
Paul.
------------
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: House training and such...
Date: 2003-10-08 16:18:56 PST
I've been having a problem with my dog, Axel,
relieving himself in the house while I'm away
from home.
I've used TPW method's, and yesterday I was out
for 12 hours, and Axel didn't have one single "accident".
Today, I had hoped that the results would be just as
good - and they were (I was out for 11 hours).
The problem began when, as a puppy, Axel would
relieve himself in the house and I would point
at the mess and tell him "NO" or "Bad Dog".
That made him afraid to relieve himself in the
house or infront of me.
After I got TPW's training manual, I corrected my
mishandling of these instances.
When I came home to an "accident", I would simply
drop a can near the area and ask Axel "What's that?"
Then I would clean it up - with out showing him I was
the least bit upset about the mess, and when he looked
at the spot I would tell him "Good boy, you're a good dog".
This has been an ongoing problem, and thanks to the
Puppy Wizard, we've finally got it taken care of...
Also, Axel LOVES the cat's litter box...He enjoys the
"snacks" he can find in there...I followed TPW's methods
by alternating sounds and praising him while or before
he sticks his nose in it, and today, he's been going into
the room with the cat box and barking. That's because
he's thinking about getting into the box, but he knows he
shouldn't.
Thank you, Jerry, for all you help.
You've been a blessing to all of us.
AIMEE
-----------------------
From: Paul
Date: Wed, Dec 6 2000 12:00 am
Email: "Paul B" <NOSPAMpaulbou...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
I'm not exactly sure why Jerry is saying to ignore me, it's his
advice that I found was the most successful. During walks in a
particular park the dogs would come across fresh cow pats and
munch away happily.
To stop this I'd set them up, I'd find a nice fresh cow turd and
stand next to it, when the dogs came over and saw it they would
start to munch, at the onset of this I'd chuck a throw chain near
the dog to distract it and praise straight away, the reason for
the praise is the dog stops eating as soon as it hears the distraction
so I'm praising that behaviour, the not eating.
I'd set them up again and repeat, but make the sound come from
a different direction, maybe the first time chuck the chain to
the right of the dog, the next time to the left, then behind etc,
it's the randomness that is effective and always sincerely praise
immediately.
Now when I walk through the park they leave the turds alone,
they aren't interested in them anymore due to the distraction
training. Don't let the dog know that you made the sound, the
sound just "occurs" this is im****tant as it removes "you" out
of the problem.
Paul
--------------------
Subject: Sweet Coprophagia
From: Lynn
Date: Wed, Sep 18 2002 10:01 pm
Email: roudyre...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Lynn)
I hate to be in such agreement all the time, but am excited
about Coco the Rotti we have boarded here. Yes she made my
job easier (no poo to pick up) as at her home she eats poo
due to major anxiety and being punished with a stick for it.
She was living on it just about.
It was gross, and she is a beautiful dog.
I decided to change this. It has taken 6 days for HER to
get an appetite and I PICK up poo now. We have yard kennels
here, so it's hard to catch every dog doing everything. I
took all the pressure off her. SHE is using a dog house,
not cowering at her gate. SHE is breaking the habit of body
blocking me so I cannot leave her area. SHE is now playing
ike a normal doggie.
What did I do? Not much. Just ask as the other's are doing,
and be patient. Not making a big deal out of behavior she is
used to being punished for.
I can snap a finger now to distract her, and say "Coco
back good girl" I move into Hot and Cold on a bad day.
The owner just got done putting up a security door due
to her taking out the old one. The dog has quit blocking
me from getting in my door when out for play. My job is
getting easier, it's a pain to be rushed by a pack of
dogs all trying to come in.
Call the dogs puppets, they don't care!
Lynn
--------------------------
From: MArtog
Date: Thurs, Jan 18 2001 7:51 am
Email: MArtog <mar...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
In article <3A65FE5F.70D8D...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
Jos...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> Ummm OK and if you didn't want Dog'butt' or anyone else to raad it..
> why didn't you just email Jerry your thanks? I smell a rat.... Bye Bye
Last reply/post from me just to explain to Joshua.
Then I'm outta here(yippee).
No I was not trying to TROLL. I wanted to post a
thank you to Jerry. That's it. Never said I didn't
want anyone else to read it. I did say that I knew
DogButt would read it even thoe it wasn't for him.
He thinks everything in here is his business.
So he had to post some childish response because he
can't help it. He is sooo predictable. He will read
this too and again post a childish response. If he
doesn't, it will show a strength of will that I don't
believe he has.
Not trying to be a rat or anything else. I clearly said
what I wanted to say about Jerry's help with my dog problem.
It is sad that this group is still so antagonistic all the time.
There is a lot of knowledge here, but it is rarely
disseminated in a kindly manner. Most newbies get
ran off in fairly short order, and go over to r.p.d.breeds
where people are much freindlier. Seems like most
posters in here have been around each other too long.
Some sort of internet cabin fever or something (IMHO).
Anyway, I won't be reading your's or DogButt's reply. So feel
free to go at each other's throats as usual,flame me and my
post, whatever.
Again, thanks Jerry and all of you have a nice day......
well except you DogButt!
Maybe Jerry can help you stop eating sh-t!
BYE!
--------------------------
SEE? SEE?? SEE??? SEE???? SEE?????
Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED:
"We Are Lucky To Have You, And More People Should
Come To Their Senses And Sup****t Your Valuable Work.
God Bless The Puppy Wizard," Professor Marshall Dermer,
Dept Of ANAL-ytic Behavior, UofWI.
From: "Marshall Dermer" <der...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
To: "The Puppy Wizard"
<ThePuppyWiz...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM
Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard
Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,
I have, of late, come to recognize your genius
and now must applaud your attempts to save
animals from painful training procedures.
You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent=AD,
who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts =ADto
alert the world to animal abuse.
We are lucky to have you, and more people should
come to their senses and sup****t your valuable
work.
Have you thought of establi****ng a nonprofit
charity to fund your im****tant work?
Have you thought about holding a press conference
so others can learn of your highly worthwhile
and significant work?
In closing, my only suggestion is that you
try to keep your messages short for most
readers may refuse to read a long message
even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.
I wish you well in your endeavors.
--Marshall Dermer
----------------
If you enterTRAIN these pathetic miserable stinkin lyin
animal abusin punk thug coward active accute chronic
life long incurable malignant mental cases, not only will
you be usurping your valuable time but you'll likeWIZE
be **** STIRRING these MENTAL PATIENTS who
desperately need their REST <{}: ~ ( >
"Rocky" <3d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Fri99F2890507AFAaustralianshepherdca@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Joan <unrulyauss...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>> Does anyone on this list have a solution for this after
>> all the supplements have failed? I've tried Forbid, Deter,
>> pumpkin, and hot sauce poured directly on the stool.
=2E
> Pick it up.
Well THAT sounds like a MANTRA, eh, matty?
> Before you think I'm being flippant with that answer -
You mean, Vs just bein a lyin dog abusin ignorameHOWES?
> I've been dealing with poop eating for
> almost a decade with one of my dogs.
Naaaah? And to what do you attribute your AMAZING SUCCESS, matty?
> No matter how it starts (there are a lot of theories),
That so, matty? "THEORIES" are UNPROVEN SPECULATION.
Here, we deal with the SCIENCE of BEHAVIOR <{}: ~ ) >
> it becomes a habit.
That so, matty? LUCKY thing we can CONdition ANY behavior
to become a HABIT, or DEcondition ANY HABIT, NEARLY
INSTANTLY, like HOWE you HABITUATED your dogs to
eatin **** <{}: ~ ) >
> Pick it up to break the habit.
Ahhh, you mean CLASSICAL CONDITIONING~!
BWEEAAAHAHAHAAA~!~!~!
Can you tell us the SCIENTIFIC mechanism behind
your CLASSICAL CONditioning methods you've been
USIN for TEN YEARS on your own **** EATERS, matty?
> Keep picking it up to make sure the habit doesn't reinstall.
Ahhhh, like HOWE you've done, matty?
HOWE abHOWET if she takes her dog to the park? Should
she PICK UP ALL THE DOG **** in creation as you do, matty?
> (From your email address I see you have Aussies.
That's curiHOWES. Seems Aussies CAN'T BE TRAINED not to
EAT **** even after TEN YEARS of PICKIN IT UP, eh, matty?
> My poop eater is an Aussie.
SHAAAZZZAAAMMM~!~!~!
> They tend to be hungry dogs, eh?)
That's curiHOWES. Dogs DON'T EAT **** on accHOWENTA
they're HUNGRY, matty. They EAT **** on accHOWENTA
they been ABUSED in HOWEsbreakin like HOWE you done.
--
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Joan MIGHT wanna take her puppy up to matty at Rocky's Place
in Canuckistan every day for the next two *(MAKE THAT 10) years:
Rocky wrote:
> Simon said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > I have two dogs and my English Setter has
> > been eating feces, both his own as well as
> > my other dog's feces. On walks, he will eat
> > other dog's feces as well.
> This is very common.
Yeah. It's an OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE NEUROTIC behavior
LEARNED from bein PUNISHED for ****in in the HOWES, matty.
> All I can suggest is the following:
Your own dogS GOT THE SAME PROBLEM, REMEMBER matty?
> Immediately pick up the poo in the areas over which you have control.
You mean, INSTEAD of just TRAINING the dog NOT TO EAT
**** in just a couple moments of using brief variably alternating
non physical distractions instantly followed by PROLONGED
NON PHYSCIAL praise, matty?
> On walks, keep him on a leash and pay attention.
THAT NEVER WORKS, matty.
> Try a different food.
THAT'S INSANE, matty.
> For what it's worth,
What it's WORTH is NUTHIN. YOU GOT NO ADVICE.
Your own DEATHLY ILL DOG Rocky GOT THE SAME
PROBLEM on accHOWENT of you ABUSE him, matty.
And your new dog got seizures and eats ****
just like Rocky!
What it's WORTH are DEATHLY ILL and DEAD DOGS, matty.
> no matter the reason he started eating poo,
You got NO METHOD to TRAIN the dog NOT TO DO IT, matty.
> he now likes it and it's become a habit you have to break.
You got any TRAININ suggestions, matty?
> You probably won't have to keep him on leash forever,
You think the dog will FORGET to eat poo when IT can't
be forced and jerked and choked not to do that someMOORE?
> just until you've taught a good recall or a good "leave it."
HOWE is THAT gonna TRAIN the dog NOT TO EAT ****, matty?
> My Rocky was/is a poo eater,
SHAAAZZZAAAMMM?
> though now only when it's winter frozen or sun dried -
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
> both are avoidable situations.
HOWE, matty? HOWE do you AVOID FROZEN / DRIED ****, matty?
> As to watching your Setter on a 24/7 basis,
> of course that's not possible in most situations,
So you LOCK THE DOG IN A BOX to BOND with them, matty.
LIKE THIS:
Re: New to us Pup, Tomorrow!
"cshenk" <cshenk1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> "montana wildhack" wrote
>
>> You may want to move the crate into your bedroom. Being
>> "near" and "next to" are very different things.
>
> Actually I would if I could, but there isnt room.
Make room, even if the dresser or a side table has to go
away for a while. This is an im****tant bonding time.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> but your *care* should be 24/7.
That so?
> That is, when he's not supervised, he should
> be in a situation where he can't do what you
> don't want him to do.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.health
From: Rocky <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 1 Jun 2007 16:28:42 GMT
Subject: Re: Giardia and pancreatitis
> Note: The author of this message requested that it not be
> archived. This message will be removed from Groups in 6 days.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA~!~!~!
HOWE COME would matty set his INFORMATIVE posts
to EXXXPIRE in six days like HOWE elegy, montana, diddler,
professora melanie chang and not so handsome not so gentle
jackass, not even jack morrison a.k.a. BIG DADDY a.k.a.
DOGMAN prefer to do when they ain't postin anonymHOWESLY
like THIS pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin dog abusin coward??:
From: Mark Shaw <ms...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 19:38:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: usenet anonymity
Some people freak out over pseudonyms. I don't know why.
I use a fake name on another newsgroup. Why? Without getting
into too many details, it's to avoid possible hard feelings should
what I post there be revealed to certain friends or coworkers in
real life.
But the name I'm known by there is real, and it's legitimately mine
in a sense - it's the name of the imaginary friend I had when I was
three or four years old. And I don't change it around; nor is it
intended to defraud or otherwise harm anybody.
So: meh.
--
Mark Shaw (And Baron)
-----------------------
HOWE COME would matty set his INFORMATIVE POSTS
to EXXXPIRE in six days? Is he EMBARRASSED by his own
words, that lyin animal abusin punk thug coward mental case
fraud an SCAM ARTIST?
matty aka Rocky EXXXPLAINS HOWE COME:
"Rocky" <2d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
For reasons I'll only explain privately, I've gone no
archive, and it's a shame. Once in a while, while
looking for something else, I'll run into an old post
of mine. What an idiotic response! Whoops.
BWEEEAAAHAHAAAHAAHAAA!~!~!
"Judy" doub...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in rec.pets.dogs.health:
> They have Spenser on five days of Panacur. The package
> says normal treatment is three days. Do you remember how
> long the two straight courses were? Is that sort of what
> we are doing with Spenser?
IIRC, 10 days in total and with extreme supervision. He's
always been a poop eater so was a prime candidate for
reinfection.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.health
From: bonn...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Rocky)
Date: 2000/01/03
Subject: Re: My dog eats her faeces !
lbon...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote in
<84pm21$4b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>:
> Some people advocate adversion training.
> Seems the best thing is to do is to clean up the
> poop before the dog can get to it.
I agree. No matter what reason the dogs *starts* to eat poop,
after a while it seems to become nothing more than a habit.
When my younger dog did this, I tried many of the suggestions
mentioned in this thread and others - nothing worked. Finally,
I simply started picking up after both dogs immediately and kept
them inside when I wasn't at home. I'm now back to picking up
once a day, and my poo-eater now shows no interest in between
meal snacks.
--Matt
Subject: Re: Housetraining Question
"Tara" <notha...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Xns987C71BBE3CA1taragreen2verizonnet@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Suja" <spana...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
news:6IG6h.3146$PI1.3017@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> That's one approach, but calmly bringing him to a spot
>> that's found, and telling him it's very wrong, and taking
>> him outside immediately and praising the ground (teaching
>> him eliminate on command can help with this a LOT), can be
>> very effective. So many people are afraid to correct after-
>> the-fact that the dog never gets corrected for doing it!
> Never done it myself, and I will tell her.
Can't find the original post (ok....too lazy to look),but
in my experience, corrections after the fact, while not
totally taboo for those who have put in thte work and who
have a clear approach to them, can make mild coprophagia
worse (dog tries to rid the scene of evidence in order to
avoid correction), if the dog was so inclined to begin with.
I would hate to imagine what it would do to a committed
stool eater like this. Prevention is everything here, IMO.
>> *I* have done setups with an e-collar for poop eating,
>> and have found it to be extremely effective.
> That's what I was thinking. That a strong correction
> might be appropriate.
Having dealt with only a couple of stool eaters of this
magnitude, e-collars and incredible amounts of consistency
have been the only thing I personally have seen work.
I'll check with Phyllis to see if she's copme up with more
creative solutions though, as she's usually the one that
ends up dealing with the poop eaters.
I'd go ahead and try the broccoli and such anyway, though
if he's so obsessed with it that he's scouring for others'
poop, the I think the help will be minor.
Tara
----------------------
Re: Starting over
"Tara" <notha...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Xns988394D96224Dtaragreen2verizonnet@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>"Suja" <spana...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in news:rD19h.96
>$Hj4.62@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Tara" <notha...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message:
>> How has this dog's housebreaking issues been going?
>> Is he still pooping in the house?
=2E
> He went about 5 days without an accident, had one (foster's
> fault), and then has gone another couple without one. A
> little consistency goes a long way, I guess.
AWESOME!!!!!!
What finally did the trick on that one? Was it simply
more close supervision and getting him out more often?
>> Was thinking about this dog the other day,
>> wondering how he was adjusting.
>
> He is getting more mobile every day, appears to have lost
> a little weight, and is doing fine with the house training.
> For a while there, he was trying to bulldoze his way through
> baby gates to try to get to the other dogs' food, but seems
> to have calmed down about it a bit; at least he can be called
> off. The fosters' other dogs are seriously stressed about him,
> but that should get a little better over time.
> The poop eating is still a serious issue, and to be perfectly
> honest, I don't see any change WRT that behavior.
Glad he's getting better physically.
No, obsessive coprophagia isn't usually something that gets
better without some *serious* aversives. Which is sad. I'm
glad you were able to find people who were even willing to
entertain the thought.... at least that's encouraging!
Tara
-----------------------
Re: Electronic collars, was Re: Dog chewing up floors
"Rocky" <2d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Fri98A8C4D62F0C9australianshepherdca@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<unmonitored.em...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>> But I'd say use it knowing that it's not just a stim or a nick.
>
> What is it if it isn't "just a stim?" (Not sure what you mean by nick.)
A nick is a time-limited stim. Good e-collars provide the
option for a "tap on the shoulder" stim which lasts in the
hundredths of a second.
> It's a very low level of current that has absolutely no
> potential for internal or external tissue damage.
A friend trains with an e-collar, and helps others with its
proper usage, yet not in Schutzhund where he used colloquially
positive methods to put a level one title on the youngest dog
in his club.
I strapped his e-collar on my upper arm, a sensitive area. On
the nick, I didn't feel much until he turned it up past what
he uses on his dogs. On the regular stim, it was--at the
worst--uncomfortable, but certainly not painful. The
*anticipation* of being "shocked" was the worst part,
but such anticipation is a human idiosyncrasy.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
THAT'S INSANE, matty.
From: Rocky <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 13 Jul 2005 04:14:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Help w/Joe Joe!!!!
Tee said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I do NOT want to lose him but if he has to go then
> its kinder for him to do it sooner rather than later.
And he'll be returned and then returned again if this behaviour
isn't corrected now. I know that you know better than to
believe someone else will give him more chances than you have.
By aversions, I meant that you may have to do more than
call him off or give him a verbal interruption. It sounds
like Joe Joe needs some immediate and unequivocal limits
that distraction or NILIF will not supply.
I would consult a trainer knowledgeable in practical
aversion techniques for some hands-on before giving
up.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 13 Jul 2005 16:55:51 GMT
Subject: Re: Help w/Joe Joe!!!!
Sionnach said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> The risk is higher with an e-collar than with verbal or
> other corrections, because the correction is harder to
> connect to the source.
Yes, but it seems that the point has been reached
where verbal corrections aren't working. Personally,
I don't think that Tara should use an e-collar unless
she works with someone with a great deal of experience.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEAAAAHAAAHAAHAAHAAA!~!~!~!
Rocky wrote:
> Robin said in rec.pets.dogs.health:
> > Jerry, you give the lying dog abusing punk thug coward
> > mental cases too much credit for the ability to influence
Naaah, The Amazing Puppy Wizard was just BAITING these lying
dog abusing punk thug coward mental cases again <{); ~ ) >
> You really are a piece of work.
INDEEDY, matty. Robin studied and followed the INSTRUCTIONS
in her FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual and RE****TED
her 100% NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS RIGHT HERE on The
Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual Forums And SCHOOL Of HARD KNOCKS And
HUMAN And ANIMAL BEHAVIOR RESEARCH LABORATORIES, matty <{); ~ ) >
You're settin in it <{); ~ ) >
> Keep this out of the health groups, 'kay?
Dogs DIE from separation anXXXIHOWESNESS, matty, JUST
LIKE HOWE your own DEATHLY ILL dog Rocky is DYIN from
STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE aka The Puppy
Wizard's SYNDROME, on accHOWENT of you're a lyin dog abusin
punk thug coward MENTAL CASE, matty, and you can't post here
abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE <{); ~ ) >
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Re: "****-Head" strikes again
"Rocky" <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Fri988D833CAEB57australianshepherdca@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"MauiJNP" <jmh1...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>> I actually broke Kanyak, our GSD-Dobe mix, of
>> that habit. The second time he did it (it was the
>> buried guts of a slaughtered sheep) I grabbed him
>> by the collar and tossed him into the shower stall
>> yelling "banyo!" (the Turkish word for "bath!")
>> repeatedly as I washed him. Kanyak HATED baths.
>> Not too long afterwards he came across another
>> op****tunity to roll in something vile and when I saw
>> him move towards it I shouted "banyo!" and that
>> stopped him cold. There were a few more chances to
>> reinforce the "conditioning" but never again did he
>> take a roll in the muck.
>
> that sounds like a great idea.
It works with the right conditioning, timing, and appropriate
correction. The right timing requires that you spend time
waiting for the action to occur naturally and then apply the
appropriate correction if your dog has already received
proper conditioning.
In OTW, do that kind of stuff only if you're extremely
confortable with your dog and he's extremely comfortable
with you.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEAAAAHAAAHAAAA~!~!~!
"Rocky" <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have,
> Solo joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about
> agility is that people seem to think that ALL dogs
> are fragile, shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected
> in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction
so much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right
now, he's just getting the confidence to work a few jumps
ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you
> are suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest.
> If that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating
> around the bush to avoid criticism from people like me.
> That kind of crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here,
> to help wean you guys off of the abuse and into the proper
> methods of dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what
> does that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"dallygirl" <kwickw...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of
dogs' well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
ANY QUESTIONS, People?
|
