HOWEDY judy a.k.a. queen mother, you pathetic miserable
stinkin lyin animal abusin punk thug coward active acute
chronic life long incurable malignant mental case,
"Judy" <doubleq@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:6ngv1rFlib77U1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "S.Smith" <sasmith39@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:lhHQk.3294$Jv2.382@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Thanks for all your good comments.
Oh, INDEEDY~!
judy is WON of HOWER most EXXXPERIENCED trainers~!
>> I did the training class for puppies at PetSmart and it
>> was rough for two reasons - his ADD and there was only
>> one other puppy in the class.
>
> Let me add another reason. It was a PetSmart class.
That's IRRELEVANT, judy <{}: ~ ( >
> Find a class run by someone who actually knows how
> to train dogs, not by some minimum wage employee
> who probably doesn't know any more about it than the
> person working the cash register at your local supermarket.
Oh, MY~!
HOWE could such a dedicated EXXXPERT as *you*
be SO WRONG, judy?? ALL temperament and behavior
problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING as taught
by the EXXXPERTS like yourself:
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) re****t a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are re****ted to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
immediately deteriorated."
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have re****ted ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents tem****arily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective, Safe Results
For All Handler's And All Critters,
And ALL Behaviors
In ALL FIELDS And ALL UTILITIES,
ALL OVER The Whole Wild World,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, *****, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE
WWW Wits'End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual
<{} ; ~ ) >
A DOG Is A DOG;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Cir***stances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are
CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George
> I don't see anything in your description of his behavior
> that would indicate that he has ADD - if a dog actually can.
Oh, you mean, LIKE THIS, judy?:
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving
Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of
Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
> And while it's nice to have other dogs in the class to
> socialize him, it doesn't change the training itself.
Of curse not~!
On accHOWENTA ALL "socialization" is DONE pryor
to the pups leavin their litter box, judy, otherWIZE you
WOULDN'T BE ABLE to HANDLE them <{}: ~ ) >
> Contact your local kennel club and ask them about cl*****.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
>> I went every Monday at 1pm for 8 weeks...did not miss one day.
>> I had little to nothing to show for the efforts.
Naaaaah. NOT TRUE; the dog GOT WORSE <{}: ~ ( >
> How much work did you do at home? Every day, every hour.
> What happens in the class is YOUR training. What happens
> all the other hours of the week is your puppy's training. It helps
> that you showed up at class.
Layin BLAME on the handler for the TRAINER'S IDIOCY
is so typical of you dog lovers, ain't it, judy <{}: ~ ( >
> It demonstrates that you were sincere in your attempt.
No, it PROVED the METHOD DON'T WORK, judy <{}: ~ ( >
> Now it needs to be at a class where the instructor is
> actually capable of teaching you to train your dog.
Ahhh, like janet or diddler, judy?
> And then you have to do all the rest of the work all the rest of the
week.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
Trainin dogs is SO EZ, I do it FOR FREE, judy <{}: ~ ) >
>> I have had other dogs (adults), but he
>> is the first puppy I have had to raise.
>
> I think this is one of the causes of your problem.
FIRST, you BLAME the "trainer", THEN you BLAME the puppy??
> Not that you *can't* do it,
She "CAN'T DO" what DON'T WORK, judy:
"OBEDIENCE CL*****" are DETRIMENTAL
to raisin a heelthy happy well trained dog, judy:
Here's noted trainer and author LeeCharlesKelley:
>"LeeCharlesKelley" kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
>> Puppy cl***** are, generally speaking, detrimentalto
>> the learning process for both the puppy and the owner.
Leah:
> I'm speechless.
> And with this statement, any credibility you still
> had with me has been flushed down the toilet.
Okay, but if you're not still speechless, then
explain why more than 60% of Americans who take
their dogs to a puppy class re****t that the dog
didn't learn anything and that the experience
was basically a waste of time and money?
LeeCharlesKelley
-----------------
From: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:53:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Critical Socialization
> "LeeCharlesKelley" kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> Okay, but if you're not still speechless, then
> explain why more than 60% of Americans who take
> their dogs to a puppy class re****t that the dog
> didn't learn anything and that the experience was
> basically a waste of time and money?
Leah:
> That one's easy. Because they didn't PRACTICE.
<snip>
> if they don't continue to use what they learned
> after class, of course the dogs are going to regress.
"Of course?" You have a pretty low opinion of a
puppy's ability to learn and remember, even though
they do it all the time with no repetitions and no
regression.
Or just maybe they *didn't* regress. Maybe they
didn't really learn anything in class because the
kind of training you use is DETRIMENTAL TO THE
LEARNING PROCESS, as I stated earlier.
If it were real learning then the dogs wouldn't,
"of course" regress, would they?
Maybe you remember the example I gave of a dog at
the dog run who instantly learned a new behavior
WHILE PLAYING, and never forgot it.
Or the example I gave about my dog learning the command,
"Up the stairs!", once, just once, and has never regressed
or forgotten the lesson.
He'll still do it every single time, eleven years after
he learned it. Hang on, I'm going to take him out in
the hall right now, where his expecation is to go DOWN
the stairs, not up, and I'm going to tell him, "Up the
stairs!" to see if he really does still remember it . . .
Yep, he went right up the stairs when I told him to,
so nope, he hasn't regressed. I wonder why that is.
But then, I forgot: you believe that learning can't
take place without repetition, so "of course" the
puppy will regress if the owner doesn't keep up with
the lessons.
That's only natural, right? Wrong.
Maybe it's time to give credence to the idea that
there's another model of learning -- which comes
naturally to all animals -- and which doesn't
require repetition or the expectation that the
learning will regress.
Just a thought . . .
From: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:57:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Critical
>"LeeCharlesKelley" kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> Yep, he went right up the stairs when I told him
> to, so nope, he hasn't regressed.
>I wonder why that is.
Leah:
> Duh. Because you USE the command regularly?
Who sez? I've gone years without using it at all.
And you're forgetting the fact that a day or two
after I taught him the command (inside the apartment
building where we lived at the time), I was walking
Fred along a street on the way to the park. I stopped
in front of a brownstone, a building we'd never been
(and still haven't).
I gave him the command and he immediately obeyed it.
The second time in his life he heard it, he obeyed it,
even though there was no possible reason for him to do
so, other than the fact that I told him to.
Why?
I also taught him once, just once, not to cross a curb
without me. He hasn't forgotten that one either.
Why?
Leah:
> If the owner knows the method to stop the puppy
> from pulling on the leash, yet lets the puppy
> pull him all over the place, the puppy will not
> stop pulling on the leash.
> This is a no-brainer.
No, *this* is: If the puppy had actually been
taught not to pull on the leash, he would stop
pulling on the leash.
I'm sure everyone here, if they thought about it,
could come up with their own examples (like the one
I gave about the dog learning a new behavior WHILE
PLAYING in the dog run) of dogs they've observed
learning a new behavior once, and never forgetting it.
It's the most natural form of learning there is.
But it requires that the dog be in a high-level
emotional state when the learning takes place,
which is something that *can't* be accomplished
in a puppy class.
Puppy clases are, generally speaking,
detrimental to the learning process.
-------------
LeeCharlesKelley Wrote:
From what I've read of Jerry's method it incor****ates
a completely new model of learning, which is based
(in simplest terms) on the idea that all behavior is the
result of finding a way to relieve emotional tension.
This is true not just for dogs but all animals.
You don't believe in the validity of this particular model
of learning? You don't think it makes sense?
Fine, I guess.
But it makes total sense to me.
And it made sense to Pavlov, too,
though not many people know this.
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement."
IOW, emotions, not outside rewards, are
what reinforces any behavior.
Finn once saw a small mouse come out of a hole
atthe base of a tree. Needless to say his prey
instinct kicked in BIG TIME and he chased it
back into the hole. This was 7 years before
he died. Up until the very last time he walked
through that section of the park (an hour before
he went) he checked the base of that tree.
He saw that mouse exactly *once*....he never
saw it again. Don't we all have stories like
that?
Especially those of us with dogs whose
prey drives are pretty intense?
And there are lots of examples that may not
even require the prey drive to be active,
just a strong desire to do something: a dog
who wants to escape from the back yard will
learn how to do it once and never forget it,
a dog who wants to jump on the couch or the
bed doesn't need any repetitions to "reinforce"
or re-learn the behavior.
If something is im****tant to a dog, he'll
learn how to do it. Once he learns it, he
learns it. The trick to getting him to
"unlearn" it, is to give him a more
emotionally satisfying replacement behavior.
With Oscar and the cat, the more satisfying
behavior was relating to me instead of the cat.
(He's a Lab, with a strong need for social
connections, so that was pretty easy.)
I've been experimenting recently with Jerry
Howe's method of using a sound distraction,
then praising the dog, without any physical
contact, for 15 seconds.
My initial reaction to his technique was that
it was silly to keep praising the dog that long.
I mean, Jerry's a nut, right?
But in every case except one, when I've followed
the exercise exactly, I've seen a definite
physiological change take place in the dog -
- yawning or stretching have been the usual
indicators -- and after only a few repetitions,
the dog often relaxes, curls up, and goes to sleep!
I've tried this on barking, counter-surfing,
separation anxiety, even two dogs who live
together and fight constantly. I was pretty
amazed when I saw this little Boston give up
her aggression and start to yawn!
It's too early for me to be convinced that it
will work every single time with every single
dog, or that it will even have a lasting effect
on these dogs, but so far I think that it's
effective at reducing emotional tension, which,
as you know, I believe that all behavior comes
from the dog trying to find a way to reduce
emotional tension. If you give the dog a
replacement behavior that successfully reduces
emotional tension, the first behavior will no
longer be necessary and the dog will stop doing it.
================
> but you don't seem to have the concept of the
> amount of work it takes to properly train a puppy.
I believe she DOES "seem to have the concept of the
amount of work it takes to properly train a puppy seein
as SHE'S DONE EVERY THING and it STILL DON'T
WORK, judy <{}: ~ ) >
> They are learning all the time.
INDEED? Then HOWE COME does it take CONSTANT
jerking choking intimidating an bribing to "properly train a
puppy" DESPITE that "they are learning all the time", judy??
> Especially when you don't think you are teaching them anything.
Oh, you think she's UN-TRAINING her dog, judy?
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
From: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:27:30 -0500
Subject: The UNTRAINER
A fan writes:
Ya know what beeny-boy. I'm starting to like you. I got a dog here
that isn't trained to do anything except walk around the neighborhood
and come home to sleep and eat. Before her I had another one that
did the same thing.
I don't know how to train a dog so I've always wondered why
everybody else has these retarded dogs with all these problems.
Sometimes people ask me how I trained my dog to do things.
They're nuts. Nobody trained her to do anything. Maybe I got
lucky with every dog I ever owned, but nobody trained a damn
one of them.
Sounds like you're not a dog trainer. You're an untrainer. Like
maybe you get them back to the way they'd have been if nobody
trained them in the first place.
So what's the story beeny-boy?
Howcome I have these easy going dogs and
everybody around here has to lock theirs in cages?
Howcome theres all these books and trainers stinking
up the frigging world and all I see is retarded dogs all
over the place?
What is that ****?
I'm reading through these conversations
here, and it's like a friggin nightmare.
What's with all these retarded dogs?
Hello Fan,
BEWARE the warnings offered to you from our rpdb Gang Of Thugs
regarding my posts and the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual.
You cannot trust your dog's well being to people who tell you to
killfile my advice... and tell you to punish, confine, and confront
your dog's behavior problems. Our Gang Of Thugs are easily
identifiable by their warnings about my posts, and their killfile
instructions to prevent me from EXPOSING THEM as the vicious,
abusive cretins they are, AND WANT YOU TO BE.
You can get all the information you need to properly handle
and train your dog using non force, non confrontational,
scientific and psychological behavior modification and
conditioning techniques, from the Wits' End Dog Training
Method manual available for free at
http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard
"Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and
judge things by reason's way, not by popular say." Montaigne
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin
"If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman.
DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS... j;~)
"CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw.
"I know that most men, including those at ease with
problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept
even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would
oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they
have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly
taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives."
-Leo Tolstoy-
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:
CAVEAT
If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing
them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your
dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes,
shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or
punish your dog in any manner, that corrections
are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the
punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they
can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a
trainer that knows HOWE.
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
Witsend...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are
learned qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant
corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
> An adult dog comes with basic behavior that you
> can decide for or against before you bring them
> into your household. They also don't have all those
> puppy traits and the teenaged traits that you've
> probably never seen in a dog before.
That's MALARKEY, judy. ALL temperament and behavior
problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING, not the DOG.
> I sincerely doubt that your dog has ADD.
INDEED? Based on WHAT, your PSYCHIC ability, judy?
> Whoever told you that doesn't have a clue what it would really mean.
Her VETERINARIAN TOLD HER THAT, judy <{}: ~ ( >
> You have an untrained puppy who is
> quickly growing into an untrained dog.
Oh, you mean LIKE THIS, judy?:
Lucy wrote:
> > It's the same puppy that is now my perfect dog [...]
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest?
"With him, words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.
Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
HOWER words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
> In other words, your puppy grew up.
Within a few minutes?
Outstanding growing up process this must have been, to occur
after repeating just a few times the dreaded praise for bad
behavior!
Lucy
-----------------
> You are looking for someone else to come in and train
> your dog and you seem to think that magically it will
> then be a trained dog. It doesn't happen that way.
Would you BET YOUR LIFE on that, judy?
From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Thurs, Oct 7 2004 5:57 pm
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> How in the world does the dog learn *not* to
> do something by getting praised for doing it?
>
> IMHO, it's a silly idea.
No doubt. I was more than a little perplexed myself, the
first time I tried it (with the chicken breast), but by
then I'd already come to the conclusion that almost
everything we think we know about dogs is wrong.
Praise is one of things.
So if it's silly, and if praise really works for the reasons
you *think* it does, why did it work with the chicken
breast example? (Hint: I already explained it in a way
that gibes, on some level, with operant conditioning.)
383 From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2004 12:22 pm
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
leah: > I can't fathom how praising them for an inappropriate
> behavior could teach them anything.
Kelley: As I said, that's because praise is one of the most
misunderstood tools in dog training. It may pain you to know
this but Jerry Howe is actually right (mostly) about how praise
works.
Since most of you have him filtered (and not without reason)
it might be helpful to read what he actually has to say,
without all the craziness mixed in. To wit:
Howe: "While we do want to interrupt undesirable behaviors,
we do not want to totally prevent or distract the dog
from the op****tunity to attempt the behavior once again."
"We want him to be able to resume THINKING of the behavior
in order to totally and permanently extinguish it. That will
usually happen in about four repetitions of the technique."
"We want to tempt and distract and praise each thought
of the behavior till it's no longer thought of due to
non fulfillment through repetition of distraction and praise."
"Most people try to prevent the behavior which means the
desire for that action will remain in the dogs repertoire,
only to occur at a less predictable and convenient time..."
<snip>
"Instantly correcting a behavior without addressing
it fully keeps that behavior available and the process
continues"
Kelley: The only thing Jerry has wrong in this exlanation is
in saying that the dog has an "idea" or a "thought" about the
behavior.
I prefer to put it in simpler terms, that the dog has an impulse
to produce the behavior. Just correcting the impulse doesn't get
rid of it, and in many cases, makes it that much stronger.
Praise is used to change the impulse to produce the unwanted
behavior into an impulse to reference the one doing the praise
and then to look to him or her for a cue as to what to do next.
I'm not 100% sure about the chronology, but Jerry may have
learned this from a case history detailed in my booklet "No
Bad Dogs, Just Bad Trainers".
In that instance a dog was conditioned to turn the behavior
of barking every time the phone rang, into a completely new
behavior: the ringing of the telephone became a cue for him
to find a toy and take it to his bed and chew on it.
The chief compononent of my training strategy was to have
his ower immediately praise the dog for barking when the
phone rang, instead of correcting him, which had no effect
(he was a Jack Russell terrier.)
Then she jumped up, grabbed a toy, teased the dog with it,
played a bit of tug, then told him to take it to his bed.
Then she answered the phone. (The whole procedure only
took four or five rings so it's not like she was prevented
from taking calls during the process, though she did put
up a fuss when I told her what she had to do.) Within
three days the barking behavior had been replaced with
the finding a toy behavior.
One other thing: in this case I think it was im****tant to
know the dog's temperament and WHY he was barking at the
phone. The actual mechanics of he strategy were specifically
designed for that particular dog, though the underlying reason
for it and its effectiveness would be the same in other cases.
Here's more from that madcap Jerry Howe:
"HOWE COME PRAISE WORKS?
"Every time your dog makes even the briefest eye contact
[with you], even a fleeting glance out of the corner of
his eye, THAT REQUIRES praise."
"Not too long [a time praising him], no staring,
just a smile and a "Good Boy, Nice Dog."
"Pretty soon, every time you say Good Boy, he'll be looking
right at you. And when you say Nice Dog, he won't be able
to think of ANYTHING ELSE but YOU."
Maybe that's HOWE COME PRAISE WORKS?
Kelley: There's a bit more to it, of course, and that's the
fact that the common ideas about praise come, in some form
or another, from the ideas that a dog will adjust his behavior
to satisfy his supposed instinct to fit into a social hierarchy,
or to please his owner.
These ideas are false. Due to the way the canine prey drive
evolved to enable dogs and wolves to hunt large prey by working
together in a spirit of group cooperation, dogs come genetically
programmed with a desire to work in harmony toward a common purpose.
Praise both stimulates and satisfies that genetic need.
From: LeeCharlesKelley - view profile
Date: Fri, Oct 8 2004 7:25 pm
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Diane: > The fact that you thought this was a good example
> without understanding why it was not speaks volumes.
> 1. She had no idea that you were praising her for
> being ahead. 2. Since you allowed her to come back
> the praise must not have been for being ahead. 3.
> Ergo you did not reinforce the behavior of staying ahead.
All I can say is you have got the strangest way of looking at this.
First you seem to think that dogs have "ideas" about what they're
being praised for. They don't. They just respond to things through
their emotions.
Second, I didn't "allow" anything. The point is most people
think that praising a behavior while it's happening reinforces
the behavior that immediately preceded the reinforcement.
I simply pointed to an example of how praising a
behavior doesn't follow that model of learning.
I wasn't trying to teach the dog anything to do in this example:
to stay ahead *or*to come back to me. I was just pointing out a
flaw in the basic logic about praise that causes most people to
respond in a knee-jerk fa****on to the idea that praise can
sometimes be used to correct a behavior.
You took that to a completely strange and irrelevant level by
turning it into another pissing contest about how hard it is
to train a dog to stay ahead of you for an obedience trial.
Who cares?
Diane: > This is a good example of why trying to do more complicated
> tasks than are typiucal in pet training would be so useful
> to you in learning.
>
> When the tasks are set for you and the standards aren't
> your own they are much more challenging to achieve.
The only thing I'm trying to do here is illustrate
that praise isn't what most people think it is.
The situations I've described are not necessarily a standard
part of my training practices, and as far as the particular
example of the dog walking ahead is concerned, it has no
practical purpose in training, except maybe to get the dog
to enjoy responding to you and reference you over the environment.
And may I just say to you and KBrown and others: I'm sorry,
but I think making a pissing contest out of who's won what
titles in what obedience trials as opposed to being "just
a pet dog" trainer is a crock of . . . well, you know what.
Teaching owners and puppies how to live a happy life together
and rehabiliting dogs with wounded emotions is a much higher
calling than earning titles in *anything*.
The only standard I'm concerned with is animal happiness.
If that's too low a standard for you -
- well, *that* speaks volumes about you.
Anybody out there who trains circus dogs?
You want to take me on next? (And don't get me started on
how *humane* it is to train dolphins to do tricks in a
little tank.)
73 From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Fri, Oct 8 2004 8:14 am
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Leah: > I did try to get my head around your theories, but I
> can't buy them. praise *reinforces* the dog's behavior
I'll give you an easier example: say you're walking through
the park with your dog. She starts walking a little ahead
of you but not isn't intensely focused on something in the
environment, she's just a little restless to move ahead.
You praise her entususiastically and she turns and comes
back to your side. If praise were only a reinforcer,
praising her for moving ahead of you would have made her
feel that *that* behavior was good and reinforced it, right?
She would have been more likely to
stay in front of you than come back.
So in this example how and why did praise have the
opposite effect and *change* the behavior rather
than reinforce it?
72 From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Fri, Oct 8 2004 8:02 am
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "LeeCharlesKelley" kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> So if it's silly, and if praise really
> works for the reasons you *think*
> it does, why did it work with the
> chicken breast example?
Leah: > Coincidence.
If it were just one case, yes. But I've used it consistently
in this manner, with a lot of different dogs, so "coincidence"
doesn't explain it.
Leah: > I've seen it proven too many times that praise
> *reinforces* the dog's behavior.
Me too. I'm not saying that it *can't* be used as a reinforcer.
It can and should. But how and why, exacly, does it "reinforce"
a behavior?
And why can it consistently be used to do *both* a
reinforcement and a correction (depending on the situation)?
Because the conventional understanding
of how and why praise works is wrong.
Leah: > If a dog has something in his mouth he shouldn't,
> praise tells him it's okay to have it.
Is that *really* what's going on? If so why can it have
the exact opposite effect and motivate the dog to give up
the object? What, exactly, happens to the dog's emotions
when you praise him?
Does it really make him "think" or feel that what he's
doing is right or good? Or is something else going on
that you haven't considered?
184
From: Lucy A. Afar
Date: Fri, Oct 15 2004 5:42 am
Email: lucyaa...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Lucy A. Afar)
s...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Melinda Shore) wrote in message
<news:ckenuk$dn7$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>...
> In article <ed128780.0410111105.5652c...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
> Lucy A. Afar <lucyaa...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >If this is so, then why are these methods being
> > rejected and ridiculed, in this group?
> It's not the methods being rejected and ridiculed. Well,
> not completely. Distract-and-praise is pretty much standard
> dog training fare. Praising the dog for unwanted behavior
> is not, and when Lee is asked for further information about
> it he says he won't tell unless he's paid. Hence the
> rejection and ridicule.
Oh, but there's plenty about praising unwanted behavior in order to
extinguish it in Jerry Howe's manual, as well as in most of his posts.
He gives precise indications of how to do it, step by step. I can well
understand that what he says about the regular posters here is not
pleasant to hear, but can't one see the merits of the method only
because one detested its author?
Also, in what Lee is concerned, he gave a few very interesting
examples that went almost without comment - the few posters
who cared to respond did so only to ridicule what - in their own
words - they had failed to understand.
And that was well before Lee mentioned the "getting paid"
thing, so it wasn't in response to it. Like the reaction to Lee's
telling about how he had dealt with a very aggressive Rottie.
Did you see that post?
What do you think about such an approach to dealing with aggression?
> He's said some other patently ridiculous things, as well,
> for example that the only true drive is prey drive. That's
> not a method problem, though - more of a methodological one.
Perhaps. But for me, who am not a trainer, the practical
aspects of dealing with a dog, the way to figure out what's
in the critter's mind, are more interesting than the purely
theoretical aspects.
In the end, what we want is to understand the animal, don't we?
Perhaps there are more than one possible theoretical explanation,
but that which matters is the one that allows to develop a method
that always works, doesn't it?
Lucy
64 From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Thurs, Oct 7 2004 6:01 pm
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Wacko aka gentleman jack morrison aka joey finnochiarrio aka
howie lip****z aka DOGMAN aka tommy sorenson of sorenson's
Retrievers:
> think of everything you know that makes sense, and do the opposite.
You're almost right, for once. (I'd leave out the part of
things "making sense" and start with some little thing you
ve been taught that maybe *doesn't* make sense, then build
from there.)
That was part of my initial impulse when I praised Fred after
he'd picked up the chicken breast. But by then I'd figured
out that very little of what p***** for "knowledge" in the
dog world makes sense.
Truthfully, I had no expectation that it would work and was
surprised as hell that it did. And it *continues* to work
to this day.
-----------------
> And you really didn't choose a breed that is going
> to make it easy for you to do little or nothing.
Blamin the BREED again, are we, judy?
> Miniature schnauzers are very smart dogs.
INDEED? Oh, you mean JUST LIKE ANY OTHER DOG, judy?
> And they are also very eager to please.
Oh, you mean, LIKE THIS, judy?:
From: "Judy" <doub...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:53:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Weekend Brag
<snip idiocy>
And yes, Spenser is also capable of acting as if I beat
him on a regular basis so I also get that point. He acts
that way if some OTHER dog is getting yelled at.
If, for instance, the bag of garbage got left on the floor
open and the dogs are starting to stick their heads in and
I yell, Spenser will act like it's the end of the world.
Sassy will back up a step, turn her head and give the
most perfect "What?" look. Spenser's feelings are hurt
if you yell at Sassy.
Sassy's feelings are impossible to hurt.
~~Judy
--------------
> They are also usually easily motivated by either food or toys.
You mean, LIKE THIS, judy?:
From: "Judy" <doub...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:11:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Approaching you dog with affection and via versa.
"Judy" <doub...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:3pibtgFah7f2U1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Spenser has a practice of flying through the newspaper
> into your lap if you're reading it rather than paying
> attention to him.
After I typed this, I got thinking - laughing about this
is definitely a small dog thing! Can you imagine one of
Melinda's dogs doing the same thing?
Although I wouldn't put it past most boxers I've known!
And at least a few of the Dobes!
Spenser likes to curl up with his feet tucked into hand.
And then he either tucks his chin also inside my hand or
rests it across my wrist.
Both he and Sassy also grind their teeth just a little
as they relax just before sleep.
It's pretty cool.
~~Judy
> This combination makes them relatively easy to train
That so, judy?
> but also means that they don't train themselves.
That so, judy, DESPITE that "They are learning all the time"??
> And that it will be a lifetime effort for you.
You mean "REINFORCEMENT NEVER ENDS", judy <{}: ~ ( >
> this doesn't mean that you have to spend hours every
> day training for the life of the dog. But it does mean
> that a one-time training period is not going to solve
> your problems forever.
Oh, THAT'S on accHOWENTA your "methods" DON'T WORK <{}: ~ ( >
> My two schnauzers are reasonably well-behaved.
That so, judy?
> This didn't happen overnight or without a great deal of effort.
INDEED??
> And we train and reinforce training every single day.
You mean your dogs AIN'T TRAINED, judy <{}: ~ ( >
> "No, you cannot continue to bark at that squirrel.
> Yes, you must sit quietly while I open the door
> for the UPS man. Yes, you must sit on the rug by
> the door until I get there to wipe your feet. No, you
> cannot go over and investigate the interesting smells
> in the neighbor's yard and yes, you must come to me
> right now when I say to." Every single day.
And *you* are offerin ADVICE, judy??
> I have no patience for people who tell me that my
> schnauzers must be some sort of strange deviations
> in the breed because *theirs* could never let someone
> come into the house and not bark hysterically at them.
That's ABSURD, judy;
All you gotta do is PRAISE them and they'll be QUIET.
LIKE THIS:
"Estel J. Hines" <ejhi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:w86dna9lBfNZgbTdRVn-hA@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
i read the Jerry method of Bark reductioon,
it went something like this with our 11
month old puppy "Yo****"
Yo****: Bark, bark,
us: HUSH You****
Yo****: Bark, bark......................
us: Hush You****
Yo**** BARK, BARK, BARK, ...........
it stopped when Yo**** got tired barking
We decided to try the Jerry method:
Yo****: BARK, BARK
US: GOOD Yo****, Good Boy, who is it?
Yo****: Bark, Bark
US: It's ok, good boy Yo****, We know them
Yosh without fail, now stops after we say that.
I must say, it is so much more fun, when we
can praise him, to deal with things like this
Thanks Jerry
ps: We are just starting to go thru the Jerry
Papers, and learn how to live with our son
"Yo****", whom we love very much.
--
Best Regards,
Estel J. Hines
-------------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
"Brandy Kurtz" <KraftyKur...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote in message
news:2f66e35d.0407302331.1f18b8c6@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hello everyone! We have a 2 1/2 year old male
Well I just printed out the Amazing Puppy
Wizard info, so I haven't actually started
to train yet.
Today a salesman knocked on the door, and Pokey
was going balisstic. I calmly go to the window
to see who it is, and off-handly say Good Boy,
It's a stranger, Good Boy.
Pokey shut right up, gave me a quizical look,
and came and sat beside my feet!
OMG, I could not believe it!
I was totally floored, as this has been his
behavior since a pup. Just wanted to update,
and Pokey and I are hitting the sack...;)
Brandy
-----------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 9:06 AM
Hello.
I never posted here (or anywhere) before.
I never trained or owned a dog before this
year.
I downloaded the Wit's End, read it, corresponded
with Mr. Howe and trained my dog to come and to
stop barking in a weekend.
Our dog, Jake, had been treated with kindness the
whole time we had him, about 10 months, but his
earlier life is unknown.
I worked on the hot-cold exercise for about 30
minutes when he suddenly "got it". After that
he came to me every time with no hesitation.
I used the cans filled with pennies to teach him
not to bark. If he now starts to bark, I go to the
door or window, say "Good Boy, its' alright" and
he usually calms down right away.
A couple of times I had to get the cans
out again to reinforce the behavior.
We feel a strong bond with this animal
and he is very eager to accept our love.
So with all the vitriolic spewing going on,
I have to believe Mr. Howe is right.
His method worked for us.
I don't know if it would have been quite
as effective if we had tried another method first.
Florence
-----------------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
From: "Marisa" <mari...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002
Subject: one day
I started some of the simple techniques in
Jerrys manual today.
The family pack exercise.... come command.....
that's all so far though.
I did get the proper equipment as well.
20 foot leash, cans with pennies partially
crushed, flat collar, etc.
I have also stopped any negative reinforcment
such as loud "No" and "Bad girl Sonique!"
(Sonique is my Jack russell) and holding her
back, which I normally MUST do or she'll jump
and nip sometimes, but always jumping and barking.
Already tonight some has started working.
When someone came to the door, Sonique
went nuts as usual.
I said "Thank you Sonique!"
"It's o.k. girl, thank you!"
And we got a total of about 6 barks and then
no jumping on guests, no biting, growling
or the worst, the continued barking she
normally does.
She accepted my praise, and trooted around,
still excited over guests, but she was WAY
more under control.
Even my roomates noticed this.
She repeated this same thing
without all her normal fuss later
when another two friends came over.
So I do need more time, going to keep with it
another day, another month whatever until I
know I am getting results, although I must say,
so far I am impressed with my dog.
She really responds to praise better than
she ever has responded to treats as distraction
from the guests and doorbell, or me yelling
"bad girl! go away now! shoosh up!" all the time.
I am also verbally praising her everytime
she makes eye contact with me. so hopefully
things will continue going well!-
- Marisa
----------------
SEE?
> It's training and there are no short-cuts.
UNLESS, of curse, you KNOW HOWE, judy <{}'; ~ ) >
> Judy
HOWEDY judy a.k.a. queen mother, you pathetic miserable
stinkin lyin animal abusin punk thug coward active accute
chronic life long incurable malignant mental case,
"Judy" <doubleq@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:5oectuFmi07sU1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Rocky" <3dogs@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:Fri99D4D58A26A95australianshepherdca@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> My dogs would come last in a head-to-head obedience
>> challenge with all the dogs represented here, anyway.
Yeah. Just like HOWE matty's deathly ill dog Rocky
done in his agility club of twenty teams <{}: ~ ( >
> Hah! I'll take that challenge!
HAH!
> Like you, I put a lot more emphasis on an off-
> leash recall than I do on heeling.
That so, judy? THAT'S INSANE~!
The COME COMMAND is the FIRST thing my students
learn to install as a conditional reflex NEARLY INSTANTLY,
a la Pavlov <{}: ~ ) >
LIKE THIS:
ballzde...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> Well I am happy to reply that so far after 10
> minutes of work and the cans from mr Howes guide,
You mean The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual <{); ~ ) >
> I have instilled the "come" command to Riley.
Good. You mean INSTALLED the come command as
a conditional reflex. Be SHORE to perform the
EXXXORCISES four times in each of four locations.
> He is an extremley smart dog, I have never had
> to go to the third or fourth try.
---------------------
SEE?
AND LIKE THIS:
From:
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: dog aggression - Today Seemed Like A Miracle -
WELCOME TO WITS' END DOG TRAINING
Sun****ne is still acting like a new dog! Saw a dog
today and "good boy-" worked along with calling him-
came the first time every time. Not even a sound out
of him. Think it is hard for him but he never even
seemed to think about going off-reacting. I would
love to write a testimonial but can not seem to find
the site--please send the address--
The word come has no affect on him just the phrase-
-Sun****ne come goodboy.
-----------------
SEE?
AND LIKE THIS:
From: "BarbnBeau" <bdea...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:52:30 -0500
Re: Puppy Wizard's Website
Hi Buzzsaw
Not a Thing to lose ...But a Lot To Gain!!
I can only speak from my experience.. I have a 8 month
old miniature poodle, and although I had done some basic
training with him we had a few barking issues ..ugh
I am happy to tell you, I contacted Jerry at the email
addy I posted and he was so great! I wasn't following
the technique precisely but he helped me get back on track.
Beau is doing sooooo well it is really a thrill working
with him, and seeing the remarkable changes.
Now I can ask for "recall" (come) both
on and off lead and it is immediate!
the first time I ask.
Best of Luck to you,
Remember if you need help or explanation contact Jerry ..
he will be more than happy to help anyway he can.
Cheers
Barb
----------------------
SEE?
AND LIKE THIS:
Hi, Jerry.
I'm not sure that I'm a 100% convert, or that I agree
with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this
manual ... BUT ... we had "come" down pat in a few
reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried
the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in
different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber
ball at my feet on command. He's still not perfect
(just a pup, after all, and he's stubborn enough to
want to push and test me a little bit more).
For what it's worth, I can see (as no doubt you have)
how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few
folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and
beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even
if that was the only method that would work, I'd live
with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that.
(Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively,
tho').
Best, ben
-----------------
SEE?
> I would like all dogs to walk with a loose leash all the time
Of curse. OtherWIZE they'd CHOKE themselves.
Or rather, YOU'D be CHOKIN them <{}: ~ ( >
PERHAPS THAT'S HOWE COME they won't heel with you?
LIKE THIS, judy:
"Greg M. Silverman" <gmsNOS...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
Hey, Mr. Wizard, or Alchemist or whatever your alias
of the day is, have to say that our dog heels much
better than she did. This is after reading and
implementing the bit in your "Wits End" treatise.
And she's a royal nutter (but then again, aren't they all?).
Cheers! Greg--
--------------------
SEE?
AND LIKE THIS, judy:
From: <n> To: "Jerry Howe"
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Damned Family Leader****p Exercise -
Re: Am I expecting to much
Hi Jerry,
When I talked to you on the phone to order to machine
for daughter's new pup, I told you that I had an older
Chessie. I rescued him at 9 years old and have had him
for 3 years.
It's funny, but I thought I'd try some of your book training
with him.
Where I used to say "come" and then say "good boy"
when he obeyed, I have reversed it with a "good boy" first.
It really does work. He was very confused at first,
wondering what he had done to get the praise.
But it really gets the attention and distracts him from
whatever he may have going through his brain when
he hears it.
Dogs are funny, but people are too. Can't wait to get
the Doggy do Right, etc.
Thanks, N
-----------------------------
SEE?
AND LIKE THIS, judy:
"Hennie van Dalen" <h.vandalen11***removethis...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote in message news:TlsCb.2895$7U1.7896@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
is age-old computer lingo.... It stands for "Read The
F***ing Manual" ;-) I used the manual and it works very good!
But it is a long text to read (76 pages printed on A4-size
paper) My lab is 1year old now, and teaching him something
new takes about 30minutes (depending on what to teach offcourse)
My other dog (a 7year old stafford****re terrier-mix) is a bit
slower in learning, but he is used to me calling him a "bad
dog"whenever he did something i didn't want him to do, or
it might be the age.
Sometimes it looks like Sam (the lab) WANTS to learn
something new: he wants me to bring along the can
filled with washers whenever we go for a walk. It is a
very "humane" way of teaching: the dog is allways a
"good dog", and never a "bad dog"
There is nu punishment or prong-collars involved.
For a fact i tought him to heel in 15min's without
beeing on a leach at-all !!! When he spotted a dog,
he used to run towards it, but now i tought him to "ask
permission" first, and to my surprise it worked!
My dogs never went to puppy-training (lucky for them),
maybe this helped too.
Manual can be found at http://www.doggydoright.com/id3.html
-- Hennie van Dalen www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11
www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11/fotografie/doggy-pictures/
------------------
SEE??
> but it doesn't appear to be im****tant enough to me to make it happen.
Oh?? Well THAT'S on accHOWENTA you don't know
HOWE to train your dogs to WANT to be with you.
LIKE THIS, judy:
"Paul B" <some...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:3edc57c5@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
When I trained both my dogs to "heel" or walk close
to me I ended up going to the parks and teaching
them without a lead at all, that ensured I had to use
good communication and was unable to be tempted
to use the lead to correct them.
Another part of the training I agree with is not using
the "policeman" approach, where you tell a dog "no"
or react with it in such a way that you become involved
in the behaviour (by trying to stop it), this approach
often results in a dog ceasing the behaviour when you
are about but doing it when you aren't (bin raiding,
counter surfing etc).
Basically you are taught to make your dog a good
friend who likes and wants to work for you for the
pleasure of working for you (setting the hierarchy
is included in this), teach it to recall reliably,
then to do everything else (sit, stay down etc etc).
Unwanted behaviours are addressed as they occur.
If you understand what you are trying to achieve and
are prepared to work with it you can get great results.
Paul
----------------
SEE??
HERE'S HOWE COME, judy:
From: "Paul B" <NOS...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 2
Subject: Re: It doesn't work. Do it harder.
"Chris Williams" <k9ap...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:16008-3E52F7CF-697@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Interesting question posed in this article: why do humans
> persist in doing things that are unsuccessful?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.
cgi?f=/c/a/2003/02/15/HO240381.DTL
There may be a few reasons, sometimes it's ignorance,
simply a failure to realise what you are doing is
futile and you need to adopt a different approach.
Sometimes you may be learning a new technique and need
to experiment with it to be sure it's not just the way
you are applying it that is the problem, you may need
to try slight variations of the same technique to see
if there is a different result before you dismiss it completely.
Sometimes you are doing the only thing you can think of,
even though it's not working but you simply don't know
what else to do.
Either way as long as you are able to reflect and learn
from your experiences and move forward then a few failed
attempts are all part of the learning process.
My best example was teaching both dogs to walk to heel,
alone and together in the brace position. I was determined
to teach them without any aids (choke, prong collars or
treats etc) and without forcing the heel by jerking or
restraining them using a leash, I knew it could be done,
despite the scorn of friends and even family who "knew better"
(but had never actually trained a dog in their lives).
It took me a while trying various ways to entice them to
want to walk beside me, someone else at the dog park whose
dog appeared to heel very well ( but held it's ears back
and tail down and looked very intimidated about being at
heel) suggested I give up and use a choke collar like him,
but I was obstinate.
One day like a switch it all fell into place, first one
dog then the other then both together all walked to
heel, then I tried without leads and it worked, the dogs
were happy and so was I.
I had persevered and succeeded and learnt a lot in the process.
People said "it took you long enough" but now I could
teach heel easily and quickly when I need to do it
again. And now when I walk my dogs and I see the same
scornful people with their dogs still pulling on the
choke collars saying "heel, heel" it's me who has the
last laugh.
Paul
---------------
SEE??
> Perhaps if they were bigger it would.
You mean on accHOWENTA they'd rip your
arm off or pull you to the grHOWEND?
LIKE THIS, judy?:
> HOWEDY sinofa*****,
>"Sionnach" <rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message :
> news:bvtf67$106jeh$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
: > <yawn> Once again- that's NOT a quote
: > from any post of mine; JH "wrote" it, not me.
:
: No, that's a flat HOWET lie, sinofabich. It's a
: direct quote from YOU, with exception of TWO
: WORDS, "smartly" and "neatly."
:
: > It's quotes from two different posts, by two
: > different people -
:
: ONLY if you're SCHIZOPHRENIC, sinofa*****.
:
: > both taken out of context-
:
: YOU'RE A LIAR.
:
: We got your original post in The Puppy Wizard's Archives.
:
: You'll see your own words EXXXACTLY as QUOTED.
: And we'll likeWIZE see you DENYING your own words
: in three different ways!!!
:
: > and with extra wording added in by a third person.
:
: NO. YOU'RE A LIAR.
:
: The ONLY "extra words," SMARTLY and NEATLY,
: were INDEEDY, added by The Puppy Wizard, HOWEver
: they were NOT SIGNIFICANT, except for poetic license:
:
: You're a liar and a dog abuser and a MENTAL CASE:
:
: "When it was obvious that she had NO intention
: of paying any attention to anything but the other
: dogs (and that I was in danger of having my arm
: dislocated <G>), I didn't even think about it; I
: dropped the leash, threw my right arm over the
: Lab's shoulder, grabbed her opposite foot with
: my left hand, rolled her on her side, leaned on
: her, said "GRRRR!" and nipped her ear (not
: particularly hard- I wasn't trying to *hurt* her,
: just get her attention!)."
:
: From: Sionnach (rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
: Subject: Re: I dropped the leash!
: Date: 2003-12-15 07:55:16 PST
:
: > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm
: > Over The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite
: > Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
: > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her Throat
: > And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear,"
:
: <yawn> That's not a quote written by me, kiddo.
: That's an amalgam of two different people's posts,
: with extra words added by Jerry.
:
: From: Sionnach (rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
: Subject: Re: another question from me and joy?
:
: Date: 2002-04-10 19:40:33 PST
:
: "BethF" wrote:
: >
: > I don't think any of our regulars bite
: > their dogs ears to leash train them.
>
: He's repeating one of Jerry's confabulations... I did,
: once, lightly nip a seriously out-of-control, temper-
: tantruming Labrador on the ear to get her attention.
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
> "Sionnach" <rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>: news:bvtf67$106jeh$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
: > <yawn> Once again- that's NOT a quote
: > from any post of mine; JH "wrote" it, not me.
:
: No, that's a flat HOWET lie, sinofabich. It's a
: direct quote from YOU, with exception of TWO
: WORDS, "smartly" and "neatly."
:
: > It's quotes from two different posts, by two
: > different people -
:
: ONLY if you're SCHIZOPHRENIC, sinofa*****.
:
: > both taken out of context-
:
: YOU'RE A LIAR.
:
: We got your original post in The Puppy Wizard's Archives.
:
: You'll see your own words EXXXACTLY as QUOTED.
: And we'll likeWIZE see you DENYING your own words
: in three different ways!!!
:
: > and with extra wording added in by a third person.
:
: NO. YOU'RE A LIAR.
:
: The ONLY "extra words," SMARTLY and NEATLY,
: were INDEEDY, added by The Puppy Wizard, HOWEver
: they were NOT SIGNIFICANT, except for poetic license:
:
: You're a liar and a dog abuser and a MENTAL CASE:
:
: "When it was obvious that she had NO intention
: of paying any attention to anything but the other
: dogs (and that I was in danger of having my arm
: dislocated <G>), I didn't even think about it; I
: dropped the leash, threw my right arm over the
: Lab's shoulder, grabbed her opposite foot with
: my left hand, rolled her on her side, leaned on
: her, said "GRRRR!" and nipped her ear (not
: particularly hard- I wasn't trying to *hurt* her,
: just get her attention!)."
:
: From: Sionnach (rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
: Subject: Re: I dropped the leash!
: Date: 2003-12-15 07:55:16 PST
:
: > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm
: > Over The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite
: > Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
: > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her Throat
: > And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear,"
:
: <yawn> That's not a quote written by me, kiddo.
: That's an amalgam of two different people's posts,
: with extra words added by Jerry.
:
: From: Sionnach (rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
: Subject: Re: another question from me and joy?
:
: Date: 2002-04-10 19:40:33 PST
:
: "BethF" wrote:
: >
: > I don't think any of our regulars bite their dogs ears
: > to leash train them.
:
: He's repeating one of Jerry's confabulations... I did,
: once, lightly nip a seriously out-of-control, temper-
: tantruming Labrador on the ear to get her attention.
:
: It had ****-all to do with leash training though, and
: everything to do with getting through to an incredibly
: hard-headed, tough-minded, and spoiled-rotten dog
: that A. she was NOT going to physically control me
: the way she had every other female human she'd dealt
: with and B. that I was worth paying attention to.
:
: It came up in a discussion where someone else
: mentioned having nipped a terrier puppy who
: wouldn't stop play-biting. In both cases, it was a
: one-time instinctive response to an unusual situation.
:
: --------------------
:
: sinofa***** writes:
: > >> What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
: > >> took posts from two different people,
: > >> took pieces of them out of context,
: > >> cobbled them together,
: > >> then added his own words:
:
: "Neatly," and "Smartly."
:
: > >> and a fake signature.
:
: "sinofa*****" instead of sionnach.
:
: > >> Which is exactly what he did.
: > >> The actual quote is misleading
: > >> when taken out of context, and Jerry's
: > >> faked "quote" is downright meaningless.
>
: > > Here's Jerry's version
>
: > > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
: > > Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
: > > Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
: > > Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
: > > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
: > > Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
: > > Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofa*****
: > > Here's yours;
: > > "I dropped the leash, threw my
: > > right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
: > > grabbed her opposite foot with my
: > > left hand, rolled her on her side,
: > > leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
: > > nipped her ear.
: > > --Sara Sionnach
:
: BWEEEAAAHAAHAAHAHAAAA!!!!!
--------------------
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
SEE?
> They may be out at the end of their leashes but not jerking.
Right. Just STRANGLING themselves. Or rather,
YOU'D be STRANGLING them <{}: ~ ( >
> What we have is good enough for me.
That so?
> I think it's true for all of us that we emphasize what
> is im****tant to us in our own households and lives.
That's curiHOWES. The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, *****, Birdy, Goat, Ferret,
Monkey, SpHOWES, And Horsey Wizard SEZ it's ALL equally
im****tant <{}: ~ ) >
ANY force applied to the collar is CONtraWIZE to
apupriate care and handling of your dogs regardless
of their SIZE on accHOWENTA it MAKES THEM
INSANE <{}: ~ ( >
> My dogs have to come into the house and sit on the rug by the door.
Yeah? professor "SCRUFF SHAKE an SCREAM 'NO!' into ITS
face for 5 seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation"
dermer's little CHRONICALLY ILL, hyperactive, obsessive, compulsive
masturbator Maxie is trained to look left and right when he takes off
or puts on his gl***** and wipes his own feet when enterin his HOWES.
> This is an absolute rule.
That so? Oh, you mean like all your other "absolute rules"
you can't train your dogs to do UNLESS you ENFORCE
them every time they DON'T follHOWE your "absolute
rules", queenie?
> Sit on the rug. Get a treat. Every time you come in the door.
> Even when the dog only seems to have gone outside for the
> express purpose of coming back in and sitting on the rug,
To elicit a reward from their human Skinner box <{}: ~ ( >
> he still gets a treat for sitting.
That so?
> Oh yeah, and the dog who *didn't* go out also gets to come
> over and sit on the rug and get a treat. Or maybe even stay
> on the couch but look expectantly while the treat is brought
> over to you.
Wouldn't THAT decondition your dogs to settin on the rug, queenie?
> We're still negotiating whether dogs sitting on the rug when
> *I* have gone outside and come back in means a dog treat.
That's SHEER IDIOCY <{}: ~ ( >
> Amusement factor alone seems to vote "yes".
That so? That's PATHETIC.
> This morning, we're working on Spenser's "Quiet" command.
Oh, you mean, a other "absolute rule", queenie?
> He feels the need to bark at a stray cat that has appeared in the area.
NO PROBLEMO! You can train your dogs to NOT bark
at innocent defenseless dumb critters IF you know HOWE.
> It's a white cat and it sticks out like a sore thumb wherever it is.
Kinda like your idiotic posts, eh, queenie?
> "Quiet" doesn't work for this.
Naaah? Pehaps you're usin the wrong word?
> (Although it does for Sassy.)
Perhaps you should use a hand signal?
LIKE THIS:
/'¯/)
,/¯ /
/ /
/´¯ /' '/´¯¯ ·¸
/'/ / / /¨ /¯\
('( ´ ´ ¯/' ')
'\' \ _.·´
\ (
\ \
> Distraction,
"Distraction" NEVER works UNLESS you know HOWE, judy <{}: ~ ( >
> turning him away from the door,
Physically involving yourself REINFORCES the "BAD"
behavior JUST LIKE "distraction", queenie <{}: ~ ( >
> none of the usual stuff.
Oh, you mean the "USUAL STUFF" that DON'T WORK, queenie?
> He is incredibly stubborn when he feels that he knows best.
No, "he is incredibly stubborn when" YOU DON'T KNOW
HOWE to pupperly TRAIN your dog, queenie. You can
EXXXTINGUISH ANY behavior NEARLY INSTANTLY
simply by DOIN EVERY THING EXXXACTLY PRECISELY
OPPOSITE of HOWE you do it, queenie <{}: ~ ( >
> I admit, we had been getting lax allowing him to
> continue on past "Quiet" as long as he did it in his
> "indoor voice" - which meant mostly grumbling
> and soft woofs.
You mean, on accHOWNETA you COULDN'T TRAIN him NOT TO.
> The presence of the cat has made it impossible
> for him to continue at that level.
Oh? Oh, so you're gonna TRAIN him not to do that nodoGdameneD more?
> So we had to reinstate the One Word Command.
Ahhh, you mean like "QUITE~!~!~!"?
Oh, THAT didn't work, did it <{}: ~ ( >
> After that, he is picked up and placed in the bedroom,
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> behind the closed door, for as long as sixty seconds.
THAT will INCREASE anXXXIHOWESNESS <{}: ~ ( >
> At which time, he is let out again and is allowed to
> remain at the sliding door, watching, as long as he
> is quiet.
And that works EVERY TIME, does it, queenie?
> He is presently sitting at the door, ears back and every muscle tense.
Ahhh. THAT will cause him to become DEATHLY ILL
from STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASES
a.k.a. The Puppy Wizard's Syndrome <{}: ~ ( >
> He clearly feels that we are being completely unreasonable
Not so much "unreasonable" as ignorameHOWES, judy <{}: ~ ( >
> and that we obviously don't understand the danger of the
> cat and the value of his barking to prevent certain disaster.
Of curse. PERHAPS you should PRAISE him an then
he'd STOP NEARLY INSTANTLY and wouldn't do
that nodoGdameneD more, queenie?
Barking is a SYMPTOM of SUMPTHIN WRONG. You
can EXXXTINGUISH barkin NEARLY INSTANTLY
unless he's SICK, simply by PRAISING the dog.
NHOWE GET THE HEEL HOWETA MY FORUMS
|
