HOWEDY Phil,
"Phil Odox" <philodox@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:o9jb44hpj60j6kl7p3tejdsik7dbb5uuhg@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Handsome \"Jack\" Morrison" <handsomejackmorrison@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> Phil Odox <philodox@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>> "Handsome \"Jack\" Morrison" <handsomejackmorrison@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>> Phil Odox <philodox@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I personally don't believe they have self-control,
>>>>>and I don't believe they can learn it from us, either.
>>>>
>>>>Dogs *learn* self-control through operant
>>>
>>>Yes, human. They learn human-control, not self-control.
>>
>>No, they control *themselves*
>
> False. We do. Without our control they would act upon
> every desire and impulse.
>
>>If, for example, a dog learns that he will receive a shock if he (say)
>>crosses over a boundary marked with flags (positive punishment), he
>>won't do it.
>
> That kind of behaviour modification is human-controlled, just
> like other electrical contraptions we might use. Sure, it will
> lose its desire or impulse to cross that boundary after a few
> jolts, and that's when it stops doing it. It wouldn't then be a
> matter of self-control, but rather a lack of desire or impulse
> instead which doesn't require controlling.
LUCKY THING you can *(well, PROBABLY NOT *you* but ANY
WON ***[well, NOT ANY WON HERE], but ANY DECENT person)
CAN TRAIN ANY DOG NEARLY INSTANTLY not to leave their
own terrortory.
LIKE THIS:
From: BethF
Date: Tues, Jan 22 2002 6:23 pm
Email: "BethF" <d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
So, jerry's techniques didnt' work for Peach?
--Beth, Pseudo usenet cop
From: misty (Momi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: Jerry, why non-physical praise?
Date: 2002-01-23 07:46:16 PST
Beth wrote:
> So, jerry's techniques didnt' work for Peach?
Never had a chance to try them on her... I was still
using the e-fence and chains to keep her in the yard.
The suggestions I received here to keep Peach home
were: build a fence... wasn't going to happen.. we plan
on putting a modular home here within the next few years...
put more fence at the top of the pen I used so both dogs
could play bitey face w/o tangling, and similar suggestions.
Jerry was the only one to mention border training... but he
was kook supreme ;-P So I ignored him... no killfiles with
webtv.. at that time Jerry had his own troll, somewhat like
Candace, so the group was not very conducive to learning
anything. At one point I even b*tched about Jerry.
By the time I tried out Jerry's manual Peach had
already ran away.
Not very good at the google groups search but you'll find my
first post at "runaway dog message 30" within that thread is
mention of the dogs taking off and being gone for 2 days. I
stopped posting for a bit... my middle boy was devastated that
his dog was gone... Zelda came home but not her mom.
The next few posts from me were ones about/to Jerry.
Then Jerry made the WETM accessible for webbes, I put it in
my e-mail ( no storage otherwise on webby unless you put stuff
on a webpage) and read it, read it and read it.
Once I understood what the concept was, I implemented it on
Zelda. It worked and I now have a great housedog!
I only regret that my own distrust of Jerry caused me to lose
another wonderful dog. Peach was an absolute gem with little
kids. I and my boys still miss her. Sometimes I still look
to see if she came home when we get back from trips. Maybe
Peach would still have ran away... I don't know and never
will....
~misty
-------------------
"misty" <Momi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote in message
I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do
know she's not here with us. I really can't blame
anyone here for her loss.
I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did it
because of how you write/wrote. I was unwilling
to accept the idea that my using a shock collar
could have any bearing on Peach not wanting
to stay home.
Up until I started using it my main concern had
been keeping my dogs in their own yard.
Once I started using the e-fence... well, then my
concern became how to keep them from running
off for days on end.
I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled
in the anti-shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades.
I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the
world now <g> A Wits End Trained dog, one who
is completely housetrained, doesn't chew up stuff,
stays in the yard, and doesn't bark all the time.
IOW a great companion and friend.
Thanks Jerry!
================
misty" <Momi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:6946-3B6337A1-329@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring.
Two dogs, two collars We now have one dog and
no collars.
Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want
to come back in the yard and would run for days.
The last time, Peach didn't come back home.
I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how
to train my dog. She is now border trained. A few
minutes each day reinforces her desire to stay in
the yard.
She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop
her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes
when we walk around the yard.
I can not say loud or long enough how much I
hate the e-fence and its collars. If you can't get
a regular fence then you need to train your dog.
I will never rely on an electronic collar to
keep my dog in our yard again.
The price was too high:-(
~misty
-----------------
From: Momi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(misty)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:44:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Anyone tried the Wits End Training manual?
I used the Wit's Ends Training manual to teach myself how
to interact with Zelda. The first read through made no
sense to me...the second time through, things clicked and
the little lightbulb glowed.
I trained Zelda to stay in the yard, not chase cats, to come,
sit ,down, stop chewing toys and to be quiet when she barks
at things she hears outside.
I don't care if 99% of the manual came from 99 other trainers...
I needed the info, it was offered free of charge and any questions
can be asked of Jerry.
One thing about his method, although you can "spot" train
with it, it works best by a pyramid approach.IOW start
at the beginning and go through the exercises in the order
he has them wrote.
The part about "non-physical praise" confused me until I
tried a little experiment. I petted Zelda and told her
what a good girl she was...she enjoyed it, tail wagging.
I then put my hand away from her (behind my back) and
praised her...she got very wiggly, ****ged me with her nose,
pawed at me and wanted more praise. Not very scientific,
I know, but it was interesting to me how excited she got.
I find that I'm starting to use Jerry's method to "train"
my kids as well:-)
~misty
My "daughter" http://community-2.webtv.net/Momisty/ZeldaAnneArensdorf/
My sons http://community-2.webtv.net/Momisty/Arensdorf14Acre/
From: Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wil...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:13:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone tried the Wits End Training manual?
On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:44:25 -0500 (CDT),
Momi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(misty) wrote:
> I find that I'm starting to use Jerry's method to "train" my kids as
> well:-) ~misty
> My "daughter":
> http://community-2.webtv.net/Momisty/ZeldaAnneArensdorf/
> My sons: http://community-2.webtv.net/Momisty/Arensdorf14Acre/
Hi Misty!
I had just about exactly the same experience with Jerry's manual.
I had visited quite a few dog-training web sites, and, while they
didn't recommend anything too harsh, they all emphasized that
I must "assert my dominance" over the pup.
Anytime I tried doing that (just once or twice) it produced a
distinctly negative result... The pup got scared and ran away.
When I took the approach of simply making myself into the most
im****tant and desirable thing in her world, she responded incredibly
well. Now I can even break off a rabbit chase instantly (which I do
NOT want to allow, as I live in a rural area with chickens and
livestock) just by calling her once in a calm, affectionate voice.
Your kids and your dog are adorable, BTW!
You can see my pup at
http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy
Check the "more pictures" link -- like your dog, Holly
is more than happy to do an "alpha rollover" when I use
the gentle, non-confrontational approach Jerry recommends.
Charlie
================
"misty" <Momi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:28899-3C4DAD04-144@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(me) wrote:
>> You can check Google for my posting history...
>> here, breeds, cats, kids and> birds... and I
>> have a dog who doesn't : chew inappropriate items,
>> jump on people, counter-surf, be aggressive, bark
>> too much, get in the garbage no matter what yummy
>> morsel is waiting, can be left overnight in the
>> house w/o pottying or any of the above... no, she
>> has no titles other than beloved pet.. but that
>> is enough for me.
>
Pat wrote:
>
> Misty, I have a dog who doesn't do any of these
> things either. She came to us with NO training
> whatsoever (didn't even know what 'sit' meant),
> but she didn't do any of those things when she
> came to us at the age of 18 months. Some dogs
> are just naturally good, easy-going, and very
> easy to live with. I'm lucky enough to have one.
Yes, some dogs are just good dogs but... Zelda used
to destroy stuff..kids toys, stuffed animals, shoes,
and even my pillow. She would pee in the house. She
would go on barking jags because the neighbor's dogs
were barking.
By using Jerry's manual I worked things out... I got
rid of the crate and put the kibosh on plans of getting
another shock collar (for e-fence) and had a plan to
follow which trained Zelda to stay in her yard and not
go roaming with her buddies.
Zelda came ito my life as a 3-4 month old pup who
lived outside, ran free and had never been inside.
We adopted her and then her mom, spayed both and tried
to cope with one dog who refused to stay home... jumped
fences, broke chains and finally chewed off collar to be
able to go go go. Peach didn't come back the last time.
Zelda started out running off with her mm and her buddies..
she continued to do so until I did the step by step plan
Jerry's manual outlines.
She stays home... she doesn't chew up stuff and she is
1000% housebroken.
Again.. Jerry might be "crazy" but his methods work
and they are free...
~misty
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