HOWEDY Phil,
"Phil Odox" <philodox@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:lehb445tshojgsrbn268cm7igd6ftqaivq@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Handsome \"Jack\" Morrison" <handsomejackmorrison@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> Phil Odox <philodox@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>>I personally don't believe they have self-control,
>>>and I don't believe they can learn it from us, either.
Well then, you don't understand Pavlov, Phil <{}: ~ ( >
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement," Pavlov.
IOW, emotions, not outside rewards, are
what reinforces any behavior.
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And
Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The
Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies.
>>Dogs *learn* self-control through operant
That's BUNK:
"Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV
"Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative
physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of
Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy
of Sciences, Moscow:
The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and
freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared
with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the
resistance to coercion," respectively, described by
contem****ary ethologists.
On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose,"
conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive
emotions arising in connection with the perfection of
a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at
a given moment, serve as the reinforcement.
The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a
phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction
as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was
demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the
state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in
rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical
activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e.,
by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man.
Simonov PV</h4>
Publication Types:<ul><li>Review</li><li>Review,
tutorial</li></ul>PMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681</blockquote>
<doctype>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=2215892&am
p;form=6&db=m&Dopt=bNeurosciBehavPhysiol1990May-Jun;
20(3):230-5
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) re****t a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are re****ted to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated.
Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well
established in research than the various dynamic
therapists."
Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of
programmed systems for learning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST
SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers."
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966).
Some clinics have re****ted ELIMINATION of the
need for child THERAPY through changing the
clinical emphasis from clinical to parental
HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents tem****arily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
------------------
Author and professional dog trainer LeeCharlesKelley wrote:
Thanks, Jerry, that's a helpful bit from the guy
who started it all. This shows what we've been
saying: that teaching the dog to play fetch,
regardless of its usefulness in the eventual
search part of the training program, is a
powerful motivator and reinforcer.
Of course these idiots (pardon my being blunt)
don't see using food and clickers as being a
form of coercion. Maybe they've been hypnotized
by Karen Pryor, et al:
Freeze Frame <{}: ~ ) >
From: canis55 <cani...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 1999/09/28
Subject: Dear Marilyn Re. Ness
Dear Marilyn,
I just visited your updated site. The two Ness pages are great.
Freezing the video frames to reveal the emotional impact a
leash correction has on a dog was a wonderful idea.
Lee Kelley did something similar to a Brian Kilcommon video.
The difference is we were focusing on the emotional impact a
leash correction has on the trainer. When you do this to a training
video you can clearly see the tremendous emotional charge some
of these trainers are getting from hurting dogs.
It's a strange business, this dog training. I wonder what motivates
any of us to engage in it. I'm suspicious of anyone who says they
do it because they love dogs. I know a lot of people who claim to
love what dogs represent to them, and yet they don't become trainers.
I don't think this is because they love something else more.
I think there is a difference between loving what dogs represent
to us and loving what training them creates in us or even creates
in them for that matter.
It's a complicated process and perhaps many of us have lost sight
of what we're doing. I read books and articles that matter of factly
explain how to systematically inflict pain on dogs in an effort to
create a desire to perform tasks that I often see dogs performing of
their own accord. I know many of these behaviors can be shaped
and encouraged to the same degree of reliability without all the
violence and pain.
Where they can't (if that's the case), I wonder why we think
a dog should perform a task that is so repugnant to its nature,
that we must resort to violence and coercion to compel them
to participate.
Maybe I have far too much respect for dogs, but when I read
this stuff it sounds like slavery and involuntary servitude to me.
I can't see much difference between what we're doing to them
(for their own good) and what my country men did to the African
peoples for nearly half a century.
It's hard for me to accept that I'm surrounded by so much
madness, but I have to go with my heart on this one. Most
of what we demand from dogs--if not all of it--will be offered
willingly and enthusiastically if we only learn how to request
it in a manner they can comprehend.
If it turns out that I have to attack a dog to get it to do or to not do
something, then maybe the dog isn't supposed to do what I think it
should.
The whole thing's so complicated that I can't really express it. I
just know I don't like some of the stuff I'm seeing or reading about.
--
I trains'em as I sees'em.
----------------
Instrumental / Classical / Operant / Conditioning
CC / OC / IC / -P +P / +R -R / S R / R S
It's ALL The SAME SAME SAME SAME B.S.
<{); ~ ) >
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv>
Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400
You might improve the learning of folk who actually
live with and train dogs to do useful things if you
excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists.
I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor
of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR
OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland.
This married pair of psychologists began the long trail
of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu
eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating
the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size
of the natural food of killer whales, seals. Yum!
The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's
summing up book, ***ULATIVE RECORD. They include a
sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand
the personal history of the particular animal, and the history
of this animal's species and group, the developmental
history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal.
Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without
scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without
pecking, you aren't going to have much success.
A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original
primitive reflex occurs no matter what the history of the
animal, and is hard wired. If you train the animal to respond,
say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright
light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex
of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell.
Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training
and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross
motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the
animal takes action and uses an instrument.
The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other
contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator,
Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology
went haring after phantasmagora.
The major theorists for the development of the language of
operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and
B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major
role in the development of American psychology.
They proposed that learning is the result of the application
of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain
responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the
probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.)
Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using
consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g.,
an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant"
because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is
influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning
illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often
viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that
follows the response that influences whether the response
is likely or unlikely to occur again.
It is through operant conditioning that
voluntary responses are learned.
One should note that Russian Psychology did very well
without the operant language, and only pettifogging
university professors ought to worry about what kind
of label we attach to the learning. Pfui!
Even Skinner understood this!
And please note if you saw the original movie, THE
MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, you saw a Chinese
psychologist who was based on Andrew Salter,
CONDITIONED REFLEX THERAPY.
Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued
us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy
to a scientific basis. Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite
Salter as a source. "...all the highest nervous activity, as
it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a
continual change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov
What's im****tant is, "does Shamu reliably eat
the fish and not the pretty girl?"
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
Who's Who Honoree since 1983
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine you may find my resume
in Who's Who in Science and Technology I have been listed
in Who's Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big
books, Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in
Medicine etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date.
These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and
you can't get yourself into them.
--------------------
> Yes, human. They learn human-control, not self-control.
> Their desires and impulses are controlled by humans, not
> by the dog's self, as in self-control. Without our human-
> control over the dog's impulses and desires, it would
> act according to them.
THAT'S BUNK:
A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill
School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back
In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They
Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their
Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK!
The Embry Study:
"While some may find it strange that reprimands
might increase the chances of a child going into
the street, the literature on the experimental analysis
of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention
to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of
more inappropriate behavior.
Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason
with their children about da****ng into the street will
likely to have the opposite impact.
Reprimands do not punish unsafe behavior; they reward it."
Source:
"Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to
Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic
Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Research Re****t
Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project."
B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment
Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused,
actually has been proven not effective at long-
term behavioral change, and creatures will find
other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom
and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter
1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states:
If we no longer resort to torture in what we call
the civilized world, we nevertheless still make
extensive use of punitive techniques in both
domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for
good reasons. Nature if not God has created man
in such a way that he can be controlled punitively.
People quickly become skillful punishers (if not,
thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative
positive measures are not easily learned.
The need for punishment seems to have the sup****t
of history, and alternative practices threaten the
cherished values of freedom and dignity.
Fear involved with punishment causes frustration:
with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy.
Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive
reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior
have proved very valuable.
----------------------------
Here's an SAR trainer of twenty years EXXXPERIENCE:
From: Mike (m.bidd...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?
Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST
> > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said.
> > Mike
>
> Ok Mike which part worked for you?
It helped clear problems from my dogs in the
field using the can penny distraction technique.
Works like a charm.
My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie,
retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did
I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team
Leader.
Sorry that slipped my mind.
I have read volumes of training books and don't
know where people get that Jerry copied others
work as I have NEVER come across his methods
before. I would like to see proof.
Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one
at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to
the way I wanted them but this is backward, you train
out the problems leaving what you want left over.
Funny part is the second dog who had the same
problems as the other didn't need correcting for
some of his habits after I cleared it from the
first dog.
Seemed he learned through osmosis.
Nice side benefit there.
It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party
trainer as they were not performing well. The
VAST majority of working dog trainers are
agressive in their actions with the dogs.
I tried it and it didn't work and guess what I
was at my "Whits End" then someone I new
turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history.
I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual
and all have had great results. Starting puppies
out on the distraction technique is especially
good because they never develop the habit.
I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down
stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home
following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and
put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after
2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT
DOG FOR 6 HRS!
first night, that has never happened in all my days.
Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple.
Mike
-------------
Here's a MOM and Pit Bull owner:
"My grandchildren will never ever.. ever.. feel shame
or feel like they're not loved :)," Amanda.
> From: Amanda [mailto:ama...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Discipline
> On Tuesday 14 January 2003 20:47, T__ wrote:
> funny you bring this up... i met the most wonderful
> couple.. man and wife.. he's a dog trainer.. all his
> life who uses a technique that is ONLY praise and
> distraction with some family pack exercises.
>
> They spent the day with us sunday helping me on
> my two pits... one is a protective/aggressive 20 month
> old female who is my bubby > :) and our 7 week male
> pup. anyway.. not only did i nip any and all aggression
> issues in mere minutes...he and his wife helped me with
> my kids.
> I was and always have been a spanker. It is all i knew
> how.. i never, ever wanted to be.. but i was. my house/kids
> were out of control.. i was always stressed.
> Since he and his wife came down sunday we've had a
> HUGE change... for the first time the kids didn't destroy
> my house before i woke up... my 3yo was in my bed
> coloring waiting for us to wake up... this is the first time
> she ever used paper :) she usually does walls, furniture.
> Anyway.. he told me to use sound/praise.. and it works.
> I have a 6 yo, 3.5 yo who is psycho child :) and a very
> bad-a$$ 19 month old.
> They are all smarter than I am and know it :) There has
> not been a temper tantrum in two days in my house.
> You guys have no idea how great this is. But best of
> all.. this method does NOT use the evil eye or a tone
> of that is in any way short of absolute praise.. no shouting..
> not even a quiet Chloe!.. nada.. ONLY praise.
> They even taught my kids not to take candy unless i say
> so.. (my oldest will literally let you pierce her ears for candy..
> it's been done twice and i keep taking em out) and now the
> bag of blow pops i forget on the floor in my closet (where we
> keep the girl's dresses) is still there and NO ONE has eaten
> one!
> My 3 yo is even helping me pick up the house.. the baby
> took my lingerie chest apart.. and she cleaned it up! first
> time!
> They don't even go out the open door without my offering it!
> they helped me sort laundry.. clean the living room... im
> amazed.
> The 3 yo got some yogurt from the fridge andwalked to our
> kitchen table, sat down and ate it.. she REFUSES to sit at
> the table and eat! We also taught them and the dogs to sit
> pretty so when they're climbing on my couch.. i go Can you
> show me how you sit pretty??
> and they ALL hop down and show me to sit pretty with their
> feet NOT on the cofee table.. hands friggin folded.. i almost
> fell over..
> thanks for reminding me to share my joy! I'm not a
> spanker! I don't even yell! lol! here i picked names
> that shout well and i don't need em!!!
> > how old is your bub amanda? waht's the bub doing?/
> > Hello again ladies,
> > Amanda, I love your signature. I also do not spank my
> > daughter, however, she is at an age where she really is
> > asserting her independence.
> > Can anyone help with ideas of what I can do? Blessings,
> > T.
Subject: Re Discipline. Also, SLEEP!
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 02:38:46 -0500
From: Amanda <ama...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Can you go into this a little more? How did they
> accomplish all this in one day?
My learning is progressive. I email or call him with
questions. But, i'm getting most of it myself. Something
clicked.
How would we do it with our families?
that is kind of broad.. ask me specifics... or i'd still be
typing when your kids are in college ;)
> I really have problems controlling my temper when I am
> already stressed out and then C__ is hurting me:
Me too.. i was abused... my mom was psycho... and i had
problems with anger.. i took it personally when my 6 yr old
wouldn't clean her room...
i would sometimes cry is was so strung out.. i didn't wanna
spank but i didn't know what to do instead.. so i spanked..
and then spanking didn't work.. and then my dogs went nuts
and i called this trainer and he showed me how to do it.
pulling my hair, scratching me, slapping me, etc.
Mine hit me on purpose alot.. scratching.. climbing on me..
hurting me and then laughing.
Now as I post.. please don't think im trying to be a know it
all.. i simply wanna relay what i have learned... as it is i've
only been spank free for a week now and yell free for two
days (my neighbors two streets over are happy :)
Children, dogs, people.. they do things wrong because it
elicits your ultimate attention. Does your 3 year old enjoy
fingerpainting on walls? no... do they enjoy fighting the
minute you pick up the phone?? No.
They *know* they can command your attention.. and that's
what they want. same reason your dogs fight.. they think it
is controlling you.
Your kids want you watching their every move.. making sure
they eat.. dont talk to strangers.. because it means you are
watching THEM and not them watching you as it should be.
they should stay within x feet of you.. because they like
mom and she's cool and she keeps em safe... they
shouldn't run and expect you to chase them.. because
you won't always be there to chase them... that's how
kids die or get lost.
When they learn to follow you.. it's all good.
Now, take my 19 mo old. She had this habit of sipping 4 oz
from her bottle and demanding more. if i didn't refill it.. she
threw a hgue fit. Now she hands me her bottle and says more..
and i tickle her...
then i pick up her bottle and pretend im drinking it.. i offer
her a drink and snatch it back saying MY Baba!! She wants
that bottle.. so she takes it and drinks it.. even tho i didn't
refill it. we had a huge problem with them taking things they
cant have and when i wanted it they ran... now i give the baby
(19mo) my finger.. and she grabs it.. and i wiggle and shout
My finger! that's mine! Gimme it back.. playfully.. and she
resists.. and i go "Ooh.. can i have it please?" and she gives
it to me and i gleefully say Thank you! and she says you're
welcome.. and i give her the finger back... then i hand her
say a lighter... and we wrestle for a minute.. and i say... can i
have that??? and she gives it over etc. Of course sometimes
she'll have a cool! book! and ill ask can i have that.. and shell
say No. and i say that's ok! and tickle her or snap my fingers
and say good girl naya.. good job..
then ill start my game again and wrestle and try to take it
gently... then.. can i have that??? she gives it over.
this works with everything now.
> Or when he's ripping up my homework or something like
> that.
Yea... with the dog training you hide nothing.. no forced
control. you set the dog up for fail.. so you can distract
and praise and erase the thought.. same with the kids.
Put some unim****tant paper all over.. when he goes to
touch it.. make a sound and distract him.. then good
boy, that's a nice baby!... then repeat.. the minute he goes
for the paper and breaks the thgougth you throw him in the
air and praise like mad!
> How would I apply this in those situations? Also, what do
> you do in 'danger' situations (until you're close enough to
> distract them) - climbing on things, sticking metal objects
> into electrical outlets, trying to get into the oven, etc.?
Use your judgement.. if you have the distance/time to
distract... do it.. if you don't... pick them up and away..
but act like it's to throw em in the air.. so they don't know
youre forcing control by phsycially removing them... c
uz when you force control.. with the come command
when you want your dog away from something... or
when you pull a dirty shoe from your baby's mouth..
you put value on it.
Like when your kid puts a penny in its mouth.. youll try to
pry its mouth open to get it... and he'll clamp right down..
you gave that penny VALUE! it's not just a piece of crap..
mom WANTS IT!
so.. instead you make a game.. say you want em to smit it
out... walk somewhere else... attract their attention.. be
kinda sneaky... odds are the thing in their mought will get
annoying and they'll spit it out when they walk toward you...
if all else fails.. pry it outta their smiling jaws... snatch em
up away from falling down... but only when you have
to.. then work realy hard to overcome that forced control.
Also don't make a big deal about it.. or else theyll learn not
only to command your attention, but also mom will always
catch me so she is watching me.. not me watching her.
> I never realized how spirited C__ was until I started
> tending other kids.
those are my kids. I have had social workers with their
degrees in child development stop offering me services
cuz they couldn't handle my kids... my friends call mine
the obstinate kids.
> They're docile kittens compared to C__! This brings
> up another question - what do you do when YOUR
> child is the bully?
if you catch it before it happens.. loud sound.. big
distraction and PRAISE. if you catch it afterward...
distract and say oh my goodness! and pay attention
to the other kid... he wont get the attention... then
explain how that hurts. odds are your kid won't hurt
another kid if he truly understands its not nice.
> C__ is always beating the other boy over the head
> when he comes over. We don't hit in anger in our family
i have.. everyone does in my family... i did it a few times
over 4 years... but that is because i didn't know how not to.
i know now.. and i wanna tell everyone i can.. so someone
else doesn't spank their kids due to a lack of knowledge.
> (we do it playfully sometimes, so we are curtailing that
> in case it is giving him ideas)
my kids, 6yo, 3yo and 19 month old, favorite game is
chasing around the house (all 4 of us) with wooden
spools yelling at the top of our lungs "I'm gonna beat
your a$$.. HA HA HA... no IM gonna beat YOUR
a$$ MU HA HA HA" my neighbors prolly think im nuts..
but the kids love it dog even plays too
> but I admit that after I have been trying to get him to go
> to sleep for 45 minutes, I get a little rough sometimes.
> It's really frustrating. He'll be dead tired - eyes bright
> red, fussy, eyes almost closing every 5 seconds.
It gets worse... they all do it around that time.. they don't
want to sleep.. andyou know what? they don't grow out
of it until they're parents :) it's one of those times you
have to use your patience and keep distracting and praising.
> So I'll take him into the bedroom, and lay down to nurse
> him. He'll nurse for about 5 seconds and then jump up
> and run to the window and start bending the blinds.
he wants you upset.. he wants your undivided attention. you
have to refuse it.. no evil eye.. no "conner" quiet or not.. no
anger.. complete nonchalance.. they have to have a total complete
entire lack fo negative attention.. and all they'll
be able to do is sit back and enjoy the positive!
One shout.. one name call.. one No! and it takes awhile to
work up to the positive only.
> So I gently pick him up and lay him back down.
try not to.. but if you have to ok
> And we repeat the process over 10000 times.
when he goes to sit up.. when yous see the thought on his
face.. distract with sound and follow with praise or a song or
giggle.
> Then I get frustrated and lay him down less gently.
better than my method of plop em in the crib and let em cry.
No anger.. stay calm.. meditate, pray.. breath.. try to
remember they will not always be this small.. and youll
never, ever for anything get it back. it's what im using
> That makes him cry, which is the last straw that
> FINALLY gets him to nurse to sleep.
He got you riled up.. what he wanted.. time to sleep.
> Writing it out, I thought of something. He must have a
> lot of excess tension he needs to release before sleeping,
> and finally crying releases it for him.
no way... crying isn't a release.. sometimes.. maybe for
some people.. crying is frustration, pain, hunger, sadness...
sometimes joy.. sometimes tension.. but not because of his
life.. because he's insecure... their dealing with negative and
positive.. and thats what makes em insecure.
> Any good ways to do this that don't involve crying?
distraction and praise.. if all else fails get up and dance..
fast for day.. slow rocking at night.
> Turning on soft music and swaying in the sling used to
> work for us, but now he either grabs at everything he can
> reach or bends over backwards until he's hanging upside
> down.
cuzhe knows what you're doing. hold him instead.. or
sit him in your lap on the bed and rock
> Putting the sling over his shoulders to prevent that
> doesn't work either. He acts like he is being tortured
> and screams and fights to get out.
becuase it is forced control.
> Katie
-----------------
From: Ama...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Ama...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: we're so frigging happy and calm.. thank you
thank you thank you thank you thank you!
Re: [Jerry] Re: Please, discontinue discussions
with our dog abusers...NINNYBOY
Date: 2003-01-13 06:20:45 PST
> > Kelly jumped on thebed..
>
> For SHORE. We didn't finish her with that cause she
> didn't get up there while we were togethers. So now's
> your op****tunity to D/P that next attempt.
Yup.. we did. She did get on it once in the middle of the
night.. but i woke up.. and did the d/p while walking out
of the room and outstanding praise when she complied.
She's got it :)
> Good. Now you got to catch her just startin to jump and
> you'll break that urge FAST.
That's tricky.. but we'll set it up today :)
> No. What scared her was her GUILT. She THOUGHT
> SHE WAS BAD. That's NOT GOOD. If your praise was
> RIGHT just after she "got scared," you're in good shape
> cause she won't have anxiety over it.
>
> That will bear watching and be prepared to follow through
> with the ALTERNATE sound if she ever tries the high chair
> dining again...
She went to her spot.. under the kids bed.. and i did the
come/praise and she came right out and we did some
lovin... i think she's just all sorts of confused.. this is
brand new.. although familiar with d/p.. she's not used
to me GETTIN it PERFECT
> You could set up some food on the high chair and just
> break her of thinkin of taking ANYTHING unless it's
> given or dropped, and you DID say you don't want them
> scrambling for droppins from the kids till YOU are SHORE
> that's what you want WHOM to have WHAT.
We'll set that up today too. But i think she got it
yesterday.. lol.
> You should have a grasp of the intricacies.
I think i do.. do you think i do?
> Not bad for about fifteen minutes of feeding together and
> maybe eight D/P's, correct me if I'm wrong.
I was so nervous i wouldn't know. Not anymore :)
> Perhaps, but The Puppy Wizard likes to jump in with both
> feet..., unlike mike d, who's "a straight leg..." That's between
> The Puppy Wizard and hisself, he knows.
> BWWWAAAAHAJAJJAJAJAAA!!!
So let them approach eachother? i'm worried about a bite
getting in before i see the build up.. and im worried about
d/ping when there isn't going to be a bite.. make sense?
> > But.. naya grabbed some dog food from the pantry..
>
> That's the 3 y.o. daughter. I'm awful with names...
That's the baby.
> > and we found her feeding moo AND kelly side by side with
> > kelly cleaning up the crumbs under moo without problem.
>
> "Bless the Beast and the Children."
Lol... they're one and the same! lol
> Well, HOWE do you know THEY didn't take if from The
> Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
> Method manual???
>
> Everybody ELSE did, they're welcome, they shoulda
> asked permission, but it's OK, I'll get over it, like mikey sez:
It was the 19 month old.. so we'll work on them with that
today.
> "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh
> And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The
> First Few Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike
> duforth, author: "Courteous Canine."
Not in my house!
> The Puppy Wizard didn't follow the instructions. HE didn't
> spray in mikeys mouth first, to DEMON-STRAIGHT for him...
> Just did, HOWEver. NO PROBLEMO.
> > i caught jasmine yelling MOOOVE! and i nicely said
> > Jaaasmine... and she shouts GOOD GIRL CHLOE
> > GOOD GIRL! lol.
> Chloe is the 6yo child, I think.
CHloe is the 3yo.. jasmine is the 6yo
> > the kids sat down.. ate thier dinner..
> Like The Puppy Wizard's Kids all do.
Was a first in this house!
Dinner usually consists of me running around making sure
dinner is not on the walls and the baby isn't dive bombing
from her high chair!
> > Naya didn't climb from her high chair...
> Yeah, The Puppy Wizard has a tendency to calm folks and
> make them verry verry HAPPY or VERRRY VERRRY SADLY...
Nope.. we're calm and happy :)
> Day or two it'll be second nature to each of you
I think i'm getting there.. i felt by the last hour when i was
d/ping while you spoke i was getting it. like slow motion..
i could see everyone going for something and i was just
getting it all out in perfect timing... with the kids too.. by
the end of the night we had moo sleeping with kelly on
the floor.. first time ever.. we praised him out of howling..
and we actually slept great!
> > my timing is kicking ass too...
> WONS YOU GOT IT DOWN PAT, YOU WON'T
> NEED IT BUT RARELY.
i think we'll have it awhile.. certain things i wanna break..
running out the door.. front door... etc
> > i'm catching them in all the right places.
> INDEED. You'll break every area of concern and the
> pups will have EXXXCELLLENTE behavior in a couple
> HOWERS... maybe less.
Yup.. we set kelly up for the pizza delivery man last night.
she barked and we did sound/distraction... she left the front
door altogether when chris called her.. first time for that
too.
> Train them to WON spot for a few days then send them off
> lead and direct them if they stray from the route and follow
> through a few times and that's the end of that.
Sounds good to me!
> You can't say that enough. Don't let me interfere....
> continue, please
Lol.. well i don't think i can say it enough either.
> > btw.. your pics are all up.
> Gonna crash the whole wild goddamned WWW.
You want me to give out the link to all of the pics??
> Yeah... kick my feet up for a while, maybe spend a day with
> The Puppy Wizard's Mrs. and HIS puppys... now that the
> STATE of The ART has been RIGHTED.
Yup... it will be a month or two for the card.. between busy
and shopping for the right card at the right price... but we
can have the tape done i think easy.
> > thank you thank you thank you.
> You CANNOT FLATTER The Puppy Wizard ENOUGH.
> PLEASE TRY HARDER. The Puppy Wizard reveres a
> DEDICATED STUDENT.
lol... watch out... we might build a statue in the park!
> > of course don't forget mrs. puppy wizard.
> The Puppy Wizard would be nothing without HIS Mrs. Puppy
> Wizard. She pulls all the strings, HE just sets there stark
> raven nekkid takin all the goddamned CREDIT for it for
> HIMSELF.
She's so cool about it though :)
> > my grandchildren will never ever.. ever.. feel shame or
> > feel like they're not loved :).
> Yeah... and that's the BEST PART, and the PRICE is FREE.
Yup :)
> > I won't stop till everyone is doing it too :)
> The Puppy Wizard thought you'd see things HIS WON WAY.
> The Puppy Wizard. <{}TPW ; ~ ) >
I always did.. i just needed to check my vision :)
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