HOWEDY robin nutcase, Golden Girl Goddess Of Agility /
Obedience Competition Trainin and Aggressive Doberman
Backyard Puppy Mill Breeding,
"Robin Nuttall" <robinjn@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:kEWxk.336633$yE1.34808@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Rocky wrote:
>> "SteveB" <toquerville@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in
>> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
>>> Positive and negative punishments cancel each other
That's INSANE <{}: ~ ( >
>>> with no matter left over for discussion.
Oh well, THAT'S on accHOWENTA the Gang Of Pathetic
Miserable Stinkin Rotten Lyin Animal Murderin Punk Thug
Coward Active Acute Chronic Life-Long INCURABLE
Malignant MaliciHOWES MENTAL CASES won't TALK
BUSINESS <{}: ~ ( >
>> In Bizzaro World.
Oh, THAT must be the "BIZZARO WORLD" where
CRATE BONDING and LIMITED CHOKIN takes place:
Re: New to us Pup, Tomorrow!
"cshenk" <cshe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> "montana wildhack" wrote
>> You may want to move the crate into your bedroom.
>> Being "near" and "next to" are very different things.
> Actually I would if I could, but there isnt room.
Make room, even if the dresser or a side table has to go
away for a while. This is an im****tant bonding time.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
--------------------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
"Rocky" <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
\
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have,
> Solo joined in and then lunged to the end of the
>leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Xns92C1EC10BFE7australianshepherdca@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rosa Palmén wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> Anybody else got bilingual dogs?
Long ago my Hebrew was pretty good - but now I
only use "Chutza"(throat clearing 'ch') - "Out" when
it's reallyreally im****tant that my dogs get away from
something.
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It A Sharp
Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn't
Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't Take It. I Still
Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My
Cat," Melanie Lee Chang * mch...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Canine Behavioral Genetics Project
University of California, San Francisco
http://psych.ucsf.edu/K9BehavioralGenetics/
From: Rocky <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior
> One of the things that frustrates methe most about
> agility is that people seem to think that ALL dogs
> are fragile, shrinking flowers who cannot be
> corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take
correction so much to heart -- I'll try something
different. Right now, he's just getting the confidence
to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"I crate Rocky, even though he's 8.5 years old, but
only when I'm gone during summertime days -
maybe an hour at the most. (Other than hot days,
my dogs are always with me.)
While Friday has been totally reliable unsupervised
from the day I got him from a rescue, Rocky has not.
Rocky will go looking for food even in areas where
there's no possibility of food.
The good thing is that he likes his crate, runs for
it when I ask, and gets food when he's in it.
--
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAAA!!!
From: Rocky (mbon...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume
> that you are suggesting that the people knee the
> dog in the chest. If that's what you meant, just
> say it, instead of beating around the bush to avoid
> criticism from people like me. That kind of crap has
> got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods
> of dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
"dallygirl" <kwickw...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many
>cases causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of
dogs' well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
=============
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
Here's HOWER DOG LOVER pal sgt grant teebon, RAAF:
"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds
To Pain And Punishment, High Tolerance For
Correction, Escalation Of Correction To A Level
Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish Him,
Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog
Will Want To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon,
RAAF.
Here's HOWER DOG LOVER pal captain
arthur haggerty, USArmy K-9 Corps:
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK"
Makes A ResoundingSound Distraction: "When
You Chuck The Dog The Sound Will Travel Up
The Mandible To The Ears And Give A Popping
Sound To The Dog."
lying frosty dahl writes:
"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less
tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking
them more sharply.
With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'
Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the
stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to
the dummy.
Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog,
Now you are ready to progress to what most
people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch.
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent
that resisting your will fades in im****tance.
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb;
even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that
Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy
against its lips and pinching its ear.
if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing
and the collar, even the buckle on the collar.
Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in"
==============
HOWE COME would these EXXXPERTS set their
INFORMATIVE POSTS to EXXXPIRE in six days
matty a.k.a. Rocky, elegy, montana, diddler, professora
melanie chang, cindy title moore of k9web.com, and
not so happy, not so handsome, not so gentle jackass,
not even jack morrison, a.k.a. BIG DADDY a.k.a.
DOGMAN a.k.a. tommy sorenson of sorenson's
Retriever PUPPY MILL and SHOCK COLLAR SALES??
Are they EMBARRASSED by their own words, the lyin animal
murderin punk thug coward mental cases frauds an SCAM ARTISTS?
matty aka Rocky EXXXPLAINS HOWE COME:
"Rocky" <2d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
For reasons I'll only explain privately, I've gone no
archive, and it's a shame. Once in a while, while
looking for something else, I'll run into an old post
of mine.
What an idiotic response!
Whoops.
---------------------------
BWEEEAAAHAHAAAHAAHAAA!~!~!
From: Mark Shaw <ms...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 19:38:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: usenet anonymity
Some people freak out over pseudonyms. I don't know why.
I use a fake name on another newsgroup. Why? Without getting
into too many details, it's to avoid possible hard feelings should
what I post there be revealed to certain friends or coworkers in
real life.
But the name I'm known by there is real, and it's legitimately mine
in a sense - it's the name of the imaginary friend I had when I was
three or four years old. And I don't change it around; nor is it
intended to defraud or otherwise harm anybody.
So: meh.
--
Mark Shaw (And Baron)
-----------------------
SHAAAZZZAAAMMM???
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> I must be in a weird mood since I'm willing
> to actually try to edjumicate this guy.
INDEED??:
Jen wrote:
> "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:txeVe.324546$x96.272690@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Yep. Jen keeps saying, "Oh, I don't mean anything
> > negative" while continuously slamming people for
> > "cruel" methods that she can't even define.
Those who slavishly devote themselves to one type of
training and who condemn others are the poorer for it.
I clicker train. I use choke collars. I shape behaviors.
I use drive work for focus and intensity. I use pinch
collars. I use harnesses. I use food. I use positive
and negative punishment.
Some of these things I use frenquently. Some very
infrequently. I tend to focus my training in the
quadrants of positive reinforcement and negative
punishment, and am far more likely to eliminate
undesired behavior through ignoring it than any
other way.
I'll also grab my young dog by the collar, lift
her up on her back feet, and tell her to KNOCK
IT OFF in no uncertain terms when the little snot
gets into overdrive and bites me.
If you want to discuss training, discuss it here.
But be willing to listen as well as talk. And
please stop top posting.
Robn Nuttall.
----------------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> Steve, do a search on Operant Conditioning
O.C. is BUNK <{}: ~ ( >
From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
To: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 4:40 AM
Subject: Fw: Counter Cruising must stop
> From: "diannes" <dian...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 12:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Counter Cruising must stop
> > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > > I wrote:
> > > > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > > > > On another note: I understand why someone
> > > > > proclaiming a method that works on all dogs,
> > > > > all the time, would send up "red flag" to you
> > > > > and others, but the fact remains, if a technique
> > > > > *doesn't* work 100% of the time, with all dogs,
> > > > > then there must be a flaw in the philosophy
> > > > > underlying that technique.
>
> > > > Ditto for dog training. No failure nor flaw of method
> > > > is involved - that's just acceptance of reality.
>
> > > First of all, I didn't say that there was a flaw in the
> > > method, though anyone is welcome to make that
> > > leap.
>
> > > I said there was a flaw in the underlying philosophy
> > > and its model of learning.
>
> > Correction accepted. I think that perhaps we are using
> > terminology differently here. Here is my use of the terms:
Jerry, I don't know where you find these folk who can't read.
> In order to use negative reinforcement, one must
> typically administer the aversive stimulus in order
> to be able to terminate it.
This is not negative reinforcement. Negative means no.
Positive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
reward emitted immediately by trainer;
Negative reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
no response by trainer;
Aversive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
aversive stimuli emitted immediately by trainer;
The term "reinforcement is used only tentatively with
"aversion" because aversive stimuli (aka punishment)
typically derange learning and are not followed by clean
learning curves equivalent to those which follow reward
or positive reinforcement;
Escape conditioning = dog has an aversive stimulus
applied without any dog related reason and when
behavior is emitted aversive stim is immediately turned off .
There is some indication that Escape Conditioning
works in a manner closely approximating reward;
but, ear pinch? -- too aversive.
I remind you that you should beat them over the head
with "The Misbehavior of Organisms" by Breland and
Breland, published in B.F. Skinner's ***ULATIVE
RECORD. Ignored by most profs of psychology, but
the distillation of his work.
NO PUNISHMENT.
Must pay attention to who is the animal?
His evolution, his development, and his personal history -
cannot train without respect for who is the dog? So says
the BIG TIME operant conditioning guru - and you can also
refer back to MARY COVER JONES (mother of scientific
systematic psychology), no loving, no learning.
I suppose I could wire up a dog so that his brain was
badly interrupted and the loving method of puppy training
might not work well - but it would still work better than
the methods used by dominatrix and their ilk.
Lovingly applied ethological techniques like the one
espoused by the Wizard of ALL puppies work for all
dogs, for that matter for all mammals higher than cat.
Indeed, they will work for cats if trainer is warmly competent.
You can see this in Key West on any sunny day.
Housecats performing quite happily.
Fondly, Dr. Von
---------------------------
> and/or B.F. Skinner.
You mean, maybe sumpthin LIKE THIS?:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon
that an expected reward not received is experienced
as a punishment and can produce extensive and
persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)."
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And
Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The
Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies.
"All animals learn best through play," Lorenz.
B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment:
Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused,
actually has been proven not effective at long-
term behavioral change, and creatures will find
other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom
and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter
1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states:
If we no longer resort to torture in what we call
the civilized world, we nevertheless still make
extensive use of punitive techniques in both
domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for
good reasons. Nature if not God has created man
in such a way that he can be controlled punitively.
People quickly become skillful punishers (if not,
thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative
positive measures are not easily learned.
The need for punishment seems to have the sup****t
of history, and alternative practices threaten the
cherished values of freedom and dignity.
Fear involved with punishment causes frustration:
with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy.
Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive
reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior
have proved very valuable.
----------------------------
Author and professional dog trainer LeeCharlesKelley wrote:
Thanks, Jerry, that's a helpful bit from the guy
who started it all. This shows what we've been
saying: that teaching the dog to play fetch,
regardless of its usefulness in the eventual
search part of the training program, is a
powerful motivator and reinforcer.
Of course these idiots (pardon my being blunt)
don't see using food and clickers as being a
form of coercion. Maybe they've been hypnotized
by Karen Pryor, et al?
A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill
School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back
In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They
Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their
Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK!
The Embry Study:
"While some may find it strange that reprimands
might increase the chances of a child going into
the street, the literature on the experimental analysis
of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention
to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of
more inappropriate behavior.
Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason
with their children about da****ng into the street will
likely to have the opposite impact.
Reprimands do not punish unsafe behavior; they reward it."
Source:
"Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to
Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic
Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Research Re****t
Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project."
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) re****t a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are re****ted to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated.
Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well
established in research than the various dynamic
therapists."
Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of
programmed systems for learning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST
SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers."
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966).
Some clinics have re****ted ELIMINATION of the
need for child THERAPY through changing the
clinical emphasis from clinical to parental
HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents tem****arily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
> In science, positive and negative, reinforcement and punishment,
> all have specific definitions of which you are obviously not aware.
Oh, O.K.~!:
From: "GEORGE VONHILSHEINER" <DRV...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Proposed article for Wikipedia
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 15:48:33 -0500
The Amazing Puppy Wizard is the cognomen of a dog behaviorist,
Jerry Howe, of Orlando, Fl. Howe's primary teaching is that
dogs deserve unconditional love, respect, and attention and
that by providing these emotional needs dogs will regulate
their own behavior.
Howe is bombastically antagonistic to rewarders, but he is
aggressively hostile to punishers - he refers antagonists
to B.F. Skinner, Mary Cover Jones, and J.B. Watson and
especially to Samuel A. Corson when they mistakenly annunciate
behavioral principles to sup****t their use of punishment.
Punishment always deranges behavior, says Skinner,
Jones, Watson, Corson and Jerry Howe!
Howe developed a sonic device which calms dogs and has
been broadly tested in a wide range of different situations.
The present author is a Who's Who recognized psychologist
who was asked to evaluate Howe's device by a former student.
Howe provided the author with a device, without
charge, and said device worked as re****ted.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
drv...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cross reference to Jerry Howe, etc.
--------------
Jerry, the difficulty with these ignorant dog molesters
is that they cannot read. Negative reinforcement is no
response by the trainer.
There is positive reinforcement, an action which is followed
by an increase in the targetted behavior (usually called
"reward" which is precisely and technically a misnomer),
negative reinforcement is the absence of any response.
Negative means 'No'.
Skinner's last book, "***ULATIVE RECORD" reviews this
thoroughly. http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/nr.html
Negative reinforcement is stopping an aversive reinforcement
according to this author. Read it, they have a sense of humor!
There are four forms of systematic reinforcement:
do nothing (negative reinforcement)
reward the behavior (positive reinforcement)
punish the behavior (aversive reinforcement) after habituating
the subject to punishment,
stop puni****ng (relief of aversion, which is negative reinforcement).
Logically, failing to reward after habituating a reward
is also negative reinforcement. Actually intermittent
rewards work better than consistent, invariable rewards,
so there is actually another two categories. Invariable
reinforcement and random reinforcement (on varying schedules).
Punishment is AVERSIVE REINFORCEMENT.
Actions which cause the animal being trained to avoid,
avert, cringe away from. Pavlovians always responded
to American psychologist's inability to reproduce Pavlov's
results with dogs with the comment, "American's don't LOVE
their dogs". If you ever observed a Russian psychologist
working with a dog, you'd instantly see the difference.
American psychologists were wooden, robot-like,
wanted to be "scientific".
This meant to them that they should display no
affection, or any other emotion with the subjects.
When a Pavlovian dog started to misbehave or fail to respond,
doggie was taken out of the equipment, and taken home for a
loving vacation, with much TLC. Sam Corson, Pavlov's last
student, demonstrated the same relation****ps at Ohio State.
Interestingly the first page of results for Sam Corson,
dog behaviorist is loaded with Jerry Howe quoting Dr. Von.
heh heh heh
Dr. Von
Oh, by the way, you once had a pompous fellow say that
Dr. Von was a figment of your imagination. I don't
normally mention this, but I have been listed in Who's
Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big books,
Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in Medicine
etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date.
These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and
you can't get yourself into them.
GvH
============
> And Operant Conditioning merely describes a theory
"THEORY", robin? You mean UNSUBSTANTIATED,
UNFHOWENDED, SUPPHOWESITION?
> by which behaviors are said to have consequences.
Oh? Sounds like PUNISHMENT:
"Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV:
"Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative
physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of
Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy
of Sciences, Moscow:
The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and
freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared
with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the
resistance to coercion," respectively, described by
contem****ary ethologists.
On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose,"
conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive
emotions arising in connection with the perfection of
a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at
a given moment, serve as the reinforcement.
The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a
phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction
as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was
demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the
state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in
rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical
activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e.,
by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man.
Simonov PV</h4>
Publication Types:<ul><li>Review</li><li>Review,
tutorial</li></ul>PMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681</blockquote>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0
<transitional//en">
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=2215892&am
p;form=6&amp;db=m&amp;Dopt=bNeurosciBehavPhysiol1990May-Jun;20(3):230-5
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"All animals learn best through play," Lorenz.
> Positive: ADD something
Like a nice choke or shock <{}: ~ ) >
> Negative: SUBTRACT something
REMOVE the choke or shock <{}: ~ ) >
> Reinforcement: INCREASE a behavior
Oh, like PRAISE?
> Punishment: DECREASE a behavior.
Oh, like PRAISE~!
> Therefore, you get the four quadrants of operant conditioning are
No, therefore you JERK an CHOKE an SHOCK your dogs.
> Positive Reinforcement: ADD something to INCREASE a behavior
Like PRAISE~!
> Negative Reinforcement: SUBTRACT something
> to INCREASE a behavior
No, that won't work.
> Positive Punishment: ADD something to DECREASE a behavior
Like PRAISE?
> Negative Punishment: SUBTRACT something to
> DECREASE a behavior.
PRAISE DECREASES "BAD BEHAVIORS"; therefore
PRAISE IS PUNISHMENT, at least accordin to behavior
science THEORY <{}: ~ ( >
> Positive and negative do not "cancel each other out"
> any more than an apple cancels out an orange.
Oh?
>They're two different things, with different consequences.
"CONSEQUENCES"? You mean PUNISHMENT:
Why Do You Reward The Dog For Being Bad?
Was:
Punish Dogs Children SP-HOWESESWith PRAISE,
Unconditional LOVE, TRUST, And RESPECT
<{) ; - ) >
Always praise the dog to show him that you affectionally
sup****t or love him. Praising the dog has nothing to do
with what he has just done, it has to do with your
relation****p with him.
"Good dog" means "I love you, dog".
If the dog is anxious, then you make certain that he
knows that he is in a safe and trusting environment.
You praise and admire him.
Correction is the opposite signal, you are my enemy,
and this results, quite naturally, in the dog behaving
aggresively - why not, you've declared that you are his
enemy.
Why does paradoxical reward work?
The dog defecates on the floor. You come up and say
"Good Dog" you love and praise him.
THE DOG KNOWS YOU LOVE HIM.
The dog defecates on the floor because he is anxious.
No wild wolf, jackal, or coyote defecates in his den.
If he defecates in his den its because a bear is outside
trying to get in and eat him.
The dog knows that it is stupid to
defecate where he eats or sleeps.
Don't you?
If the dog feels safe he'll behave as if he
is safe, no pooping on the living room floor.
Almost all maladaptive behavior is due to fear, anxiety,
expectation of disaster. Correct the situation, and the
dog behaves fluently like a ..... Dog!
Punishment deranges behavior, it is never never never appropriate.
Love the dog.
Praise is never punishment, praise is like giving a
piece of steak. If you give a piece of steak to a dog
after he defecates on the floor he'll stop defecating
on the floor.
Fondly, Dr. Von
----------------
> Withdrawing attention when the dog tries
> to jump on you is negative punishment.
No. Turning your back and folding your arms an
PRETENDING NOT TO NOTICE your dog is
attempting his BONDING BEHAVIOR is "positive
reinforcement" <{}: ~ ( >
> Kneeing the dog in the chest is positive punishment.
No, kneeing the dog in the chest for BONDING BEHAVIOR
is CRIMINALLY INSANE behavior <{}: ~ ( >
> In all training, it's far more productive (and fun) to teach
> the dog what you DO want rather than what you don't.
That so?
> I find dogs very rarely need any sort of "punishment."
INDEED?
> And just so you understand, the people who are
> answering you on this list are people with
THE SAME PROBLEMS FOR THE SAME REASONS.
DESPITE:
> a tremendous number of years training dogs
> to very high levels in all kinds of situations.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> It really wil behoove you to listen.
Yeah? Here's robin's POSTED CASE HISTORY
of jerkin chokin shockin an cripplin her fear aggressive
hyperactive backyard puppy mill dogs:
HOWEDY robin,
"Robin Nuttall" <robinjn@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:UiZif.585694$_o.387608@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> RhodesianRidgebacksRule wrote:
>
>>
>> Because submission is a NEGATIVE experience. Why do you believe so
>> strongly that a dog needs to be submissive to be obedient??
>
> Why do you believe so strongly that submission is negative for the dog?
On accHOWENT of it makes them fearful and insecure
and causes hyperactivity and aggression like you
see in your own dogs, robin.
> Sounds to me like you don't know dogs very well.
Perhaps you missed her first post sayin she didn't
know dogs well and wants the best advice she can get?
> Most dogs are
A dog is a dog, robin.
> extremely uncomfortable with the thought of domination.
That so?
> And in in the world of dogs, heirarchy is very im****tant.
You mean you're contradicting yourself?
> Knowing where he is on the ranking ladder is
> very im****tant to the dog.
That's INSANE.
> If the dog is not submissive to the human, i.e.,
"Most dogs are extremely uncomfortable with the thought of domination."
> if he does not rank lower than the human, he is thrown into the
extremely
> uncomfortable position of having to try to LEAD the human.
THAT'S INSANE, robin.
> Which causes all kinds of huge problems.
You mean on accHOWENT of dogs ABHOR a LEADER****P VAC***E???
>> ws.
?
>> Hey, if wanting my dogs to be obedient without having them afraid of me
>> makes you think I'm a bit of a crackpot, I'd say its because you're
>> probably
>> a confirmed power tripper. I'm not a control freak.
>
> There's a huge difference between submission and fear,
That so, robin? You mean, kinda like this?:
From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 18:23:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Thou Foul Beast, Thou Basest Worm...
HOWEDY robin,
You're a MENTAL CASE.
If you can't pupperly handle dogs you shouldn't
be takin care of them. Fancy that, you talkin
abHOWET "Thou Foul Beast, Thou Basest Worm..."
"Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:fWSfc.3645$0b4.11722@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> I have a houseguest this weekend, Jura, a Scottish
> im****t Springer. And Cala (2 year old Dobe) is just
> being SO insufferable. Now mind you, she knows this
> dog, she's known him since he was a baby puppy and
> he's now a year old. But she's discovered that as
> he's a mere MALE and she's a *****, she can reduce
> him to quivering jelly. And she's really, really
> enjoying it.
> I'm always reminded of the scene in McCaig's Nop's
> Trials where Nop totally falls in love with the b**ch
> in the next run, and for days she spurns him in formal
> verse. Cala is telling Jura,
> "Thou foul beast, thou basest worm, thou artst s***,
> thou art not fit to lick the dung from the bottom of
> mine feet."
> All this is accompanied by extravagant facial expressions,
> typically showing each of her 42 teeth in glorious, ****ning
> white.
> And poor Jura is awed.
> "Oh, thou artst beauteous, might I be permitted
> to wor****p thou toenails?"
> Now mind you, this is TOTALLY different than what
> happens when Nell stays here. Nell, dingo-dog, 10
> years old and 30 pounds of tough, walks into this
> house and owns it. Viva tolerates her benignly (just
> like she's doing with Jura). Cala gives her a very,
> very wide berth.
> Poor Jura.
=================
> and obedience and fear. Obedience demands that you, the human, take a
> leader****p position.
Oh? Is that where your SHOCK COLLAR comes in, robin?
> It means that you are team captain.
Oh? You mean like you and your "agility" dogs, robin?
Seems you've CRIPPLED a couple of your own dogs from
jerking and choking them. REMEMBER robin?
> It means that YOU, being able to read and drive the car, make the big
> decisions. It means the dog understands that
> and trusts you to do so, accepting his position as the follower.
You mean on accHOWENT of you'll jerk and choke and choke IT if IT don't,
robin?
> Pain has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Of curse not!
> You must lead. Your dog must follow. How you choose to
> lead is up to you, but you cannot NOT lead and have an effective
> relation****p with your dog.
INDEED? Here's YOU "leadin" your own dogs to DEATH:
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:34:18 GMT
Subject: Re: E-Collars - with Vibrator?
Gwen Watson wrote:
> Still why is that these dogs have awful manners?
> Inconsistency? Lack of common sense on the handlers
> part? Several reasons?
Depends on the handler. Some people care about good
manners, some people don't. But it's still totally
disconnected from whether the dog is a good competition
dog, which is the point.
To take it to agility, I know a lot of really top
agility competition dogs who are dog aggressive,
crate protective, etc. My own dogs are absolutely
awful beggars and counter surfers.
Obviously it doesn't bother me personally that much
because I haven't eradicated it. That doesn't mean
they are not trained to a very high level in other things.
> No real reason? Its all very interesting to me and I am sorry
> my questioning this has upset and frustrated so many. It was
> honest questions. I have always thought or been told there
> is never a bad question. It sure seems as though I have
> asked a very bad question by wanting to know how
> this is possible.
No, you've made people mad by nitpicking, overexaggerating,
going off on tangents, changing your questions, and not
bothering to read responses.
Questions are fine.
Not liking the answer and getting combative,
incoherent, and defensive is not so fine.
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:27:24 GMT
Subject: Re: If you HAD to re-home your dog(s)...
Both my girls would go back to their co-owner.
Viva, despite, or rather because, of her issues,
could go to almost anyone who could give her a
safe, calm environment.
Because of her very bad early start, she has a
real need to be bonded and have a human she can
count on.
Cala would be a different matter. She would need
an experienced working home--someone who knows
how to direct and channel drive without overuse
of correction.
A wimp would turn her into a frustrated and dangerous
dog. Someone who wanted to throw their weight around
and who was too heavy with corrections might also well
end up with a dangerous dog--she's got way too much
fight drive to back down if pushed.
Fortunately my co-owner is smart and could probably
find somewhere quite suitable for both of them.
Robin Nuttall.
> > Also, I think that the process of "withholding" a reward
Withholding rewards can cause aggression,
seizures, phobias of all sorts and OCD'S.
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
how we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
> > that resulted in the decrease of a behavior
Witholding rewards increases anxiety which would
increase the behavior or cause the dog to throw
mindless meaningless unthinking random behaviors
to elicit the treat.
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
> > would probably more accurately be accounted
> > for by the *extinction* process.
That's so confusing to me I don't see how a dog
can figure it out especially when two or three
of you can't agree on what's going on with all
this alphabet soup.
Extinction is best facilitated by increasing
excitation or DRIVE and briefly alternately
(e.g. randomly presented non physical) distracion
instantly followed by prolonged (5-15 seconds)
and intermittently thereafter non physical praise
before the action is manifest and resume repeating
the process till you've successively - successfully
conditioned the subject's ability to NOT engage that
THOUGHT through NON fulfillment
It's EZ. Takes a little sense of timing, a confident
gently tone, and consistent tempo, IOW, Pavlovian
conditioning.
Should take four repetitions with four different
stimuli in four different environments to EXTINGUISH
ANY BEHAVIOR.
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov
> Here's a way I use P- in its classic sense.
Is that P as in punishment praise or poo poo?
> Cala loves agility.
Most dogs do. But your dogs "love it" because
they're hyperactive and this vents their anxiety.
How can you "compete" in agility if you got a
dog aggressive ***** who won't even heel after
a year and a half of jerking choking shocking
bribing intimidating crating and ignoring???:
From: "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:26:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Warning about Dog Trainer
There are pullers, then there are PULLERS. Viva
is one of the former, and has learned to walk
very nicely on a loose leash. I'm convinced that
Cala is genetically incapable of walking on a
loose leash.
She's almost 18 months old now, and we have been
working on the issue since I first put a leash on
her. She's so high drive that *nothing* I do is
as reinforcing to her as pulling. I can stand still
till I keel over--she just stands there at the end
of the leash, pulling as hard as she can. I can do
sneak aways until I am dizzy, we just get yo-yo
effect ("okay, I'll pull THIS way now!).
I can clicker her for loose leashes until my thumb
falls off--and she still pulls.
A click and treat is not as reinforcing as the world
around her. Our only real solution at this point is
the pinch collar, which keeps her from totally wearing
me out, or hurting herself by actually flipping at the
end of the leash.
I have a feeling this is something that she will
only develop with age, and will come regardless
of any training I do or don't do.
And yes, I've trained many, many dogs to walk on
a loose leash, but not this one... Robin Nuttal.
> It's very highly reinforcing for her.
You mean when she ATTACKS you because she
gets lots of treats and praise. Do you
suppose that's what's caused your dog's
SEPARATION ANXIETY?:
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:47:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Crating/Caging: What constitutes abuse?
J1Boss wrote:
> Sally wrote:
> A guest/foster dog who just needs to chill out.
> A dog who's so wound up that they just can't seem
> to stop themselves, and I need to do something -
> like eat or shower or breathe.
Cala is one of those puppies who, when she's tired, just
gets more and more and more and more wound up until she's
on the verge of total meltdown. While it's amusing to see
her tearing through the house on warp speed, it's advantageous
to everyone, including her, if she's crated when she gets
totally wound like that.
I cheerfully tell her she's a good puppy and take her to
her crate. Within 2 minutes she's usually sound asleep.
Keeps me from strangling her, and all she really needs at
that point is to be removed from stimulus so she can crash.
And she does.
> No - don't say that - the crate bashers won't be have
> any reason to call us thugs! I do use crates forever
> though - in my car and at training class and shows.
Yep. Crates are good places. Crates are safe, and
crates take you to fun places and to do fun things.
> > Crates may be helpful to confine dogs with separation
> > anxiety, although many dogs with SA try to escape the
> > crate. Crates are safe places for dogs to hide when
> > visiting children annoy them. Crates are excellent
> > places for dogs to be confined when ill or injured.
Viva has some separation anxiety issues. It's difficult
for her to be uncrated when I'm not home. She feels she
must then take responsibility for the whole house as well
as anything and everything she may see outside.
It's a lot of pressure for her. If I leave her uncrated,
she's always a bit frantic when I get home. If I leave
her crated, she only has responsibility for her own space
and doesn't feel she has to guard the entire house and yard.
She is much calmer and happier being crated while I'm gone.
She'll never have the run of the house when I'm not home
because *she* doesn't like it. Robin Nuttall.
Pavlov Told Us So 100 Years Ago. Sam Corson,
Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH
Oxford, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive
Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC.
Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The
Scientific Management Of Doggys.
> But she had a lot of impulse and drive
> control challenges when she was younger.
That so? You mean she was and still is hyperactive,
oppositional, fear aggressive even with opposite ***
dogs and turns on you when FRUSTRATED as per your
posted case history.
You've never finished those "control challenges",
not with EITHER dog especially Cala the one you
TRAINED for three years despite having raised her
since DAY ONE. Your dogs both have SEPARATION
ANXIETY amongst many other PROBLEMS.
Like this:
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:29:21 GMT
Subject: Re: Doggie temperament test
Suja wrote:
> Robin Nuttall wrote:
>> Oh My. Whoever thought of this thing is an idiot.
>> Many of the STOP TEST AGGRESSIVE DOG responses are
>> exactly the responses you want to have in a high
>> drive, active, curious dog. I got so many of those
>> (pretty much all that way) for Cala that I stopped
>> taking the test. And she's not aggressive.
> Well, I don't agree with that stupid test at all,
> but Cala isn't what I'd call a Newbie dog, is she?
Nope. She's not. She's bred to her working heritage.
But that test doesn't talk about any of that. It
just makes blanket statements.
And FWIW, I full well realize the responsibility I
took on in breeding the litter I did, with the type
of working temperament I was looking for, and got.
Heck no, she's not a beginner dog, but I would never
have placed any dog out of this litter with a beginner
owner. Robin Nuttall.
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 16:01:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Shock and awe
shelly wrote:
> In news:3E3EA77C.3090608@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> typed:
>> My dogs don't get to make discipline decisions.
>> My dogs get to be nice with other dogs, period.
>> If they're not nice, they stay on lead until
>> they can learn to be nice.
> exactly. that goes for being the Dog Police and for being
> obnoxious brats who pick on other dogs. i don't tolerate
> either of those behaviors within my own pack or between my
> two and other dogs.
This is something I'm acutely attuned to.
Part of it is owning Dobermans, who have a bad rep anyway.
Part of it is that I know for a fact that my puppy's sire
is profoundly dog aggressive. It was the one thing I did
NOT like about using him, and the plusses outweighed the
minuses. But I watch Cala like a hawk. Being able to go
to offlead parks has actually helped, as she's gotten to
meet a large number of dogs of all shapes and sizes.
But our dog park is different than many in that it's a
huge area with trails cut through brush--mob mentality
doesn't often come into it. Robin Nuttall.
> Namely she would sometimes get too excited,
And bite you:
From: "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:00:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Does your dog do this?
"Andrea" <andrea.sto...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:dMB0b.13637$_P1.4916@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> The "sorry" look and licking is appeasment behavior.
> Dogs to it to avoid retribution, not because they
> really understand how to apologize. Really, you
> should just teach her some bite inhibition so that
> you don't get hurt, and she doesn't have to worry.
I totally agree, but with some dogs that's far
easier said than done.
Cala is finally showing signs of trying to keep
her teeth to herself, and it's been a constant
battle since she was a baby puppy. She's now 17
months old.
I have often been a total mass of bruises from
her releasing overdrive into a nip. Not that
she's ever full-out bitten me, but trust me,
those nips and pinches can be extremely painful.
The higher drive the dog is, the more difficult
it can be to deal with the issue. Robin Nuttall.
> go over the top and vent drive by biting/nipping at me.
Because you are withholding treats choking shocking
intimidating and crating your highly driven working
dogs as per you posted case history which I've spent
the past couple of hours (maybe ten or so...) just
researching your ETHICKAL BREEDING program and your
high drive backyard bred genetically DEFECTIVE
"working dogs" which you'll ONLY SELL to show homes.
Interesting, compelling, sickening stuff, every bit
of it. You should be ASHAMED to post here ever again.
I had to force myself to quit with only the tip of
the iceberg uncovered thus far reading only posts
mentioning your dog Carla.
I had no idea you were a backyard breeder too!
You even bred your DEFECTIVE back yard bred *****
to a DOG AGGRESSIVE sire to get the QUALITIES you
wanted, yet you still couldn't train Carla to come
or heel by 18 months of age, nor PASS the CGC!!!
despite having bred her from your own highly driven
working stock *****.
And you got the NERVE to say you don't even "BELIEVE"
in the validity of the CGC test BECAUSE YOUR dogs
CONSISTENTLY FAIL TO PASS IT.
AND THEN YOU DISCOVERED your BACKYARD BRED "STUD"
WASN'T GENETICALLY HEALTHY and being the ETHICKAL
BREEDER you are, you had to CONSULT your business
partner who told you to give up on your backyard
ETHICKAL BREEDER project seein as THEY GOT STUNG
BIG TIME by you and your ignoramus shenanagains.
Did you notify your "WORKING SHOW HOME" PUPPY CUSTOMERS?:
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:08:34 GMT
Subject: Re: Breeders suck...
Shelly & The Boys wrote:
> Then another friend who recently had a litter had
> mentioned to me that she'd love to see one of her
> pups go to me. I would've LOVED to have a pup
> from her litter. However, for my next pup, I a)
> want a ***** and b) want to wait at least 4 years
> before acquiring another dog so that Bodhi gets
> all training & attention that he should.
> <sigh> All the work to get *into* the breed,
> but apparently once you're in, you're gold. :-)
Yep, once good breeders figure out that not only
do you give your dogs a great home, but you do
actually work with them and title them, you pretty
much walk on water.
And if you're willing to keep a *****
intact for awhile, you are God.
But I must admit that now that I'm going to spay Cala-
-a mutual decision between myself and my co-owner after
a rather major health problem showed up in her sire's
line--that I'm looking forward to not having any new
dogs for several years.
Maybe it's because Cala is enough to turn anybody's hair gray!
I plan to wait until she's at least 5 or 6 before
thinking about another puppy. That will put Viva
at 10 and probably near/at retirement, and Cala
should be well settled in and hopefully we'll be
a good team by then.
That said, I've already got my eye on a potential
breeding that should happen several years down the
road... Robin Nuttall.
> Obviously this was a no-go.
Seems your entire posted case history 'JUST SEZ NO!'.
IN FACT, it rather makes you LOOK like a lying
dog abusing punk thug coward as we've SEEN and
we AIN'T EVEN GOT STARTED building your GALLOWS
with your own written words, Robin.
> However, I found that a hard correction (P+)
> tended to ramp her up even higher.
Why would you need to HURT a highly driven working
dog force IT to do what he was SELECTIVELY BRED to
do? Wouldn't you think that'd make your selective
breeding program a MOCKERY and a HOAX, Robin?
Or would you prefer to call it a CRUEL JOKE
on all them puppy customers you STUNG by being
a ETHICKAL BREEDER and breeding to a known dog
aggressive "stud" (but that's IRRELEVENT as all
temperament and behavior problems are CAUSED
BY MISHANDLING not BREEDING) who just happend
to turn out to have a CONGENITAL DISEASE that
you OVERLOOKED in your ETHICKAL BREEDERS PROGRAM?
Nice goin Golden Girl Goddess!
> She has a very high fight drive
You mean she PAINICKS when you hurt and intimidate her.
> and will actively move into a physical correction.
You mean she TRIES TO ATTACK you so you got to HANG
HER like you done to that fear aggressive Irish Wolfhound
in your "class" and jerked and choked IT like how you
do your own fear aggressive hyperactive out of control
factory DEFECTIVE *****es.
> And not only that, but P+ corrections actually put
> her even higher into drive, not something I want
> to happen in this case.
INDEED? How did you determine that?
> So instead, I started simply taking her
> to her crate when she bit me.
But of course:
Jen wrote:
> "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:txeVe.324546$x96.272690@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Yep. Jen keeps saying, "Oh, I don't mean anything
> > negative" while continuously slamming people for
> > "cruel" methods that she can't even define.
Those who slavishly devote themselves to one type of
training and who condemn others are the poorer for it.
I clicker train. I use choke collars. I shape behaviors.
I use drive work for focus and intensity. I use pinch
collars. I use harnesses. I use food. I use positive
and negative punishment.
Some of these things I use frenquently. Some very
infrequently. I tend to focus my training in the
quadrants of positive reinforcement and negative
punishment, and am far more likely to eliminate
undesired behavior through ignoring it than any
other way.
I'll also grab my young dog by the collar, lift
her up on her back feet, and tell her to KNOCK
IT OFF in no uncertain terms when the little snot
gets into overdrive and bites me.
If you want to discuss training, discuss it here.
But be willing to listen as well as talk. And
please stop top posting. Robn Nuttall.
> I was withdrawing her ability to
TO BITE YOU.
> do a very highly reinforcing task--agility.
Ummm, wasn't THAT what makes her BITE YOU?
If this agility GAME is SO REINFORCING why can't
you train her to do the tables and stop line and
A frame and not attack you when you hurt her for
being OBSTINATE and SKITZY in the ring?
> Further, I was doing it in a way that did
> not put her any higher in drive.
You mean hyperactive oppositional and aggressive
when you jerk choke shock ignore and withhold
attention affection rewards trust and respect.
> She learned that biting/nipping resulted
> in the fun stuff stopping.
You mean the jerking choking shocking and withholding.
> She spent enough time in the crate to
> safely come down out of drive,
You mean she felt safe and could relax again.
> then I would take her out and we would do something simple
Or she'd ATTACK you again.
> and praise for being in drive without being over the top.
You mean you praise her for BEING HYPERACTIVE and
NOT ATTACKING you again. Perhaps you should use PREY
DRIVE as well?
You got a volatile dog there. Better watch out
your SHOCK COLLAR don't spark an explosion. I'd
be PREYIN to the Golden Girl Goddess if I was you.
> It's been very effective.
Do tell?
"Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:yX1Hb.664461$Tr4.1669501@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> sionnach wrote:
> >>I wish I didn't have otherleftitis.
> > "Otherleftitis" -I love it!
> > Just out of curiosity... and this question's
> > to everyone who trains for tables, esp. Robin:
> > do you train an automatic down on the table,
> > with a quick pull up into a sit if needed- or
> > do you train the table as two seperate things-
> > first get on the table, then sit or down?
> With Viva I trained the latter--she was my first
> agility dog and I had less than adequate instruction
> during her foundation, and have been paying for it
> since, especially on obstacles and the table.
You mean you can't train her despite your shock and
choke devices and slices of Processed American Cheese
Food Substitute cut evenly into 25 equal pieces.
> However, I have retrained her to do a down first
> and it's helping, but swear to Dog the judges in
> this area request a sit 75% of the time and a down
> only 25%! The down is now mostly adequate, the sit
> still sucks twinkies.
Perhaps you should try a piece of liver between
your lips so she'll at least pay attention when
you speak to her?
> With Cala I've trained "get up on the table and lay down."
> But even though I've done that from day one, I'm still
> having some trouble with it--when she's in drive she
> imitates her mother and stands there screeching like a
> banshee instead of doing her job.
That's because you jerk and choke and shock her.
She also gets skitzy on the stop line on the ramp.
That's the other obstacle you got to her her to do.
She barks and screams at you just like Susan Fraser's
dog was shrieking on line and nearly got himsel
DISQUALIFIED from entering any more trials for the
same reason.
> I usually turn my back on her and that helps.
Of course. Works EVERY TIME, don't it.
> Sure would be nice to get a fast down on the
> table but I'm sure not having much success...
You're not having any "success" because you HURT
your dogs, Robin. You've crippled two of them with
so called Woblers's SYNDROME from jerking and choking
them and Viva's got bi-lateral "arthritis" in her
front legs (is THAT PREREQUISITE for BACKYARD BREEDING
STOCK, Robin?) and your Cala nearly broke her back and
"dislocated" her rib when she took a fall off the ramp
she balks on for the same reason you can't even train
Cala to heel after having her from DAY ONE till 18 months
despite all your pain fear force and intimidation TOOLS:
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:23:03 GMT
Subject: Re: beginning agility
Rocky wrote:
> Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> Oh yeah - when Friday's barking *at* me, I might as
> well walk off the course. Naturally, I don't because
> I'm going to use that expensive training time to the max.
Heh. And when Cala is in that mode walking off is the only solution.
>> I'm thrilled for both of you that your dogs have instant
>> and complete off switches. That's exceedingly rare.
> Assuming there was no sarcasm in there - thank you!
Nope, no sarcasm. :)
> Though only one of my dogs has an instant off (and on) switch,
> and I'm doing whatever I can to exploit it while not ruining it.
> It's funny, though - Friday will do a nanosecond down on the
> agility table or at the line, but do you think that I can get
> him to do it away from a trial situation?
And I can get super fast downs everywhere
BUT the table. With both dogs.
I've been working the table a lot more with both
dogs, trying to help the issue, but it's definitely
a weak spot, and since I have the same issue with
both dogs (slow sits and downs, barking) it's got
to be a fault in my training. Robin Nuttall.
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:04:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Opinions please...sorry, got long...
Sionnach wrote:
>> No, humans should not be allowed to do anything,
>> anywhere, at any time. However, if, say, I have
>> my dog at the vet, and the vet is trying to do
>> something with me supervising the dog, I'd be
>> extremely surprised and upset if the dog protested
>> in my presence--they know that's not allowed
>> and for those moments the vet becomes an extension
>> of me. (I can do this, I'm saying the vet can do
>> this, so deal with it). However, in my absence, I
>> wouldn't be surprised if a vet trying to do something
>> with my dog did elicit a growl. It's never happened
>> yet but you never know.
> With my three- Brenin would never growl at the vet
> or a tech, with or without me. He's very unhappy if
> seperated from me, and will try to get back to me,
> but he's compliant if I've indicated he should go with
> someone.
> He also DOES NOT bite, even in situations where nobody
> would have blamed him if he had- for instance, when someone
> he barely knew scared the heck out of him by suddenly
> grabbing him from behind, picking him up, and flipping
> him over.
> Rocsi will growl if caused pain (for example, when the
> vet was palpating a sore foot), but it's not a threat,
> merely a communication- she doesn't show teeth or make
> any attempt to use them, just grumbles & tries to pull
> away. I don't have any qualms about letting her be
> handled away from me, either.
Well yeah, I'd of course not object if my dog yelped
or growled in pain, though I've never had one growl.
Dobermans tend to be so stoic and so silent that it's
actually a problem--they will NOT show signs of pain
at the vets even if you practically twist their affected
part off their body. So the vet is going, "gee, she seems
fine!" and once I get them home they won't even put a foot
down.
Cala is the first dobe I've ever had that is what
I call a Drama Queen, and man, she plays it to the
hilt. Banged her foot on something the other night
and had a barely perceptible lump. Acted like she
was going to die, limped dramatically until the
next morning when she would alternate limping
pitifully with charging full speed after her ball.
Then she'd remember, "oh, I'm supposed to be hurt!"
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:07:48 GMT
Subject: Re: beginning agility
Gwen Watson wrote:
> Robin Nuttall wrote:
>> I'm thrilled for both of you that your dogs have
>> instant and complete off switches.
>> That's exceedingly rare.
> Why is it that everytime someone has a different opinion
> then your own you reply in such a way? You do demonstrate
> the inability for diversity of opinions. Too often have a
> seen such remarks from you.
Gwen, it was an HONEST admiring comment. I AM thrilled
that they have instant and complete off switches. Many
people, including me, do not have dogs who are capable
of that. I am GLAD for them that they do. I think it's
got to be in some way genetic.
Viva can come out of drive somewhat quickly, but not
that fast. Cala has trouble coming out of drive at all.
I see you're off on the whacko side again today...and yes,
THAT is meant exactly the way it sounds. You have to be one
of the dumbest people I've ever interacted with on usenet,
and being as I've been here for 10 years now, that's pretty
impressive in and of itself.
*Cala had a very nasty fall off a dogwalk a couple of weeks
ago, landed on her side so hard she bounced up in the air
about 6 inches, and dislocated a rib. Luckily my acupuncturist
was actually in the building that night and was able to slip
the rib back into place.
The next week she was better but her back was now out of
place, so an acupuncture treatment fixed that up and now
she's fine! I know that Solo has issues. I wonder if you
could find an acupuncturist who would be willing to let
you just come hang out for several sessions so Solo can
get comfy, perhaps while he/she is even treating someone
else.
I know my dogs wouldn't mind as long as the other person
and dog weren't disruptive. A good acupuncturist can do
wonders for little miscellaneous ouchies like he's got.
Robin Nuttall.
Subject: Agility
She's 10.5 months old, and has had very little growth
since she was 7.5 months old--when she went into season.
It's somewhat rare for a large breed dog to have a first
season that young--it's more common for it to happen at
about 10-12 months. And she wasn't pulled in by Viva-
-Viva is going into season right now, 3 months after Cala.
So I'm curious to see whether or not Cala's growth
plates will close early. Even if they have, she's
nowhere NEAR ready mentally to do a lot of work,
much less physically. Robin Nuttall.
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 03:17:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Teaching dogs to be calmer....
Rocky wrote:
> HolierThanThou said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>> he isn't hyper like a Jack Russel, or anything.
>> He isjust busy.
> Friday is this way as well. He has a great fast down
> and a good stay/wait, but as soon as we hit agility -
> Things Change. His down goes from fast to lightning
> fast but his stay/wait goes out the window.
> It's not that he isn't trained, obviously - he's just changed
> gears and, at this stage, I'm not going to extraordinary
> lenght to "fix" this and perhaps take the fun out of it.
You know, I'm having a lot of success teaching the stay
as an active part of the game instead of as a boring
"stay there till I say different" exercise.
So instead of asking for a sit or a down, I get Cala to
offer me one for what she wants. Sit, and you get to tug.
Down, and you get a click and a treat, etc.
I've expanded that to a game of sit and wait. (down and
wait). It's very simple. I get a VERY favored toy out.
She has learned to offer a sit. If she gets up before I'm
ready for her to, I simply remove the toy before she can
get to it.
She has to go back and sit again to get the toy. So she's
learning that waiting is merely a prelude to lots more fun!
I conclude the game with a set of commands that she knows
is going to trigger her release. For us, it's "Ready" said
in a teasing drawn out way, then "Okay! GO!!!" for a release
to grab the toy or treat or just run around like an idiot.
She's getting to LOVE the wait game! And because she's
waiting IN drive, I think she will retain it at the start
line better than a conventional stay. Robin Nuttall.
Yeah? We'd think you can use your effective
stay command when you're fighting and bribing
your dogs to hold still for a nail trimmin:
Subject: Trimming claws
Robin Nuttall Mar 30 2003,
I first click and treat for simply turning the dremel
on and having it near them, then click and treat for
holding a foot while the dremel is on, then drop the
clicker (not enough hands!) and at first treat after
each nail, weeding that to a treat after each foot,
then a treat after it's done. With Cala, who truly
does hate it, I sweeten the pot by giving her a tiny
treat as we start, then a bigger treat when we're done.
She still hates it, but will willingly hop on the
couch and will even fight (well not really fight,
you know what I mean) Viva for the prime grinding
position. Robin Nuttall.
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:46:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Ping Gwen (& Robin N.)
re: agility (was: I want this dog)
Gwen Watson wrote:
> Robin Nuttall wrote:
> Cala sounds wonderful Robin. I know she
> is going to give you a Mach some day!
If I don't kill her first. Viva will get her MACH long before Cala.
> How serious is this. I have never heard of it.
> Is there a way to prevent it, or is it fairly
> easy to remedy?
It can be a chronic problem. It needs rest
and specific rehabilitation
>> I know a rather alarming number of bigger
>> dogs with arthritis in their front feet-
>> -Viva has this.
> I am sorry to hear that. Do you notice it more
> in the winter? I forget how old lovely Viva is. 6?
Viva is 6. Part of hers is because she's missing
a tendon in one foot due to a bad injury 3 years
ago. She gets lots of supplements. Robin Nuttall.
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:25:06 GMT
Subject: Re: A Note to Owners of Non-Aggressive dogs and Agility
Susan Fraser wrote:
>> No. Sorry, but no. I know you kind of meant that as a
>> joke, but so often, when I say, "my dog doesn't like
>> other dogs in her face," people will say, "well, if
>> Fifi goes over there, she deserves to get bitten,"
>> or "let your dog put my dog in her place!"
> Yes, I totally meant it as a joke. And even though I
> read your AgileDogs post first, I see now that you do
> realize it was a joke and were just using the post
> to illustrate a point.
> *Of course* I do not expect your dog to teach mine
> a lesson. (And I am aghast that someone would!)
I hear it ALL the time. Many, many times when I say,
"she doesn't like other dogs in her face," I hear
"Oh, I hope she bites him, he needs to learn a lesson."
It's maddening. And yes, I was just using your post to
make a point on agiledogs. :)
> In the case of teaching puppies some manners, I have
> often felt that instead of play times with equally
> clueless peers at puppy kindergartens, it would be
> more appropriate for my pushy golden pups to have a
> group of adult dogs of various breesd and temperaments
> to interact with - to mentor to them how to
> show respect and keep an appropriate distance, etc.
> And yes, that would be 'using' the older dogs, but when
> we keep our pups on a leash and refuse to let them interact
> with various types of older dogs, how are they to learn
> appropriate behaviors within their own species?
That's exactly what I did with Cala. Cala's sire is actually
very dog aggressive. So from a tiny puppy, I made a point to
get Cala out with a variety of dogs, of all ages, shapes,
and sizes.
Some were moresubmissive than her, some were bolder.
Some put her in her place, some did not. She learned
very good dog language skills. Unfortunately, she did
get attacked at least three times when she was young.
Not in these social situations, but by a friend's *****
who hates puppies. At first, it looked like this would
have no lasting repurcussions.
But as she's matured, Cala has become more
reactive to strange dogs.
Part genetic?
Perhaps. The good thing is, that if you just give her
(literally) five minutes, she relaxes, realizes things
are okay, and is happy to play with the other dog unless
it's truly obnoxious and pushy.
And she isn't looking for a fight--if a dog does tell
her to knock it off, she will flatten to the ground
immediately. Robin Nuttall.
You're lookin at the problemS the wrong way.
These dogs are not "high drive," they're HYPERACTIVE
from MISHANDLING.
Your "training efforts" have made them NERVEHOWES.
The "zippy zoomies" are NOT exuberance, they're ANXIETY.
The dog KNOWS you cannot HURT IT in a trial...same same
same same reason lying "I LOVE KOHELER" lynn's dog Jive
gets high scores in the ring (she trains in a ring daily),
but CANNOT BE FORCED TO WORK A SAR JOB, the same same as
Jeff Dege CAN'T TRAIN HIS OWN DOG not to break command to
attack innocent furry critters despite his SHOCK COLLAR
trained reliable come command.
BWWWWWWAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:mtYYa.102050$YN5.71125@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > "EmilyS" <emil...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> > news:10011e64.0308081253.732f1320@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > KWBrown <arfenarfNOS...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> > <news:Xns93D162D2FF864arfenarfNOSPAMhotmai@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>...
> > > > "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
> > > > news:GKOYa.98019$YN5.69581@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > Basically if I had this dog I would take her to her
> > > > > "boundry" area for the creek--the place where she
> > > > > goes from being normal to frenzied.
> > > > > I would stop just at that line and ask for attention.
> > > > > I wouldn't command attention. Instead I would simply
> > > > > ignore any and all attempts to getto the stream, and
> > > > > wait for the dog to calm down and look at me.
> > > > > When I had focus, I would calmly release to the
> > > > > creek with a trigger word.
> > > > I think I'm going to take this approach with Storm
> > > > the next time she zooms at agility practice. I'll
> > > > bring her near the course and wait for attention
> > > > before we do anything - and become still and boring
> > > > the instant she loses focus. I don't want to shut
> > > > down all that drive, but she has *got* to pay
> > > > closer attention!
> > > > Kate
> > > the classic "solution" for ring zoomies is to run
> > > away and hide outside of the ring when she starts
> > > zooming. Everyone else is supposed to completely
> > > ignore her, as well.
> > > NO reinforcment.
> > > Presumably at some point, the brainz that have been
> > > leaking out of her head recede. And then she will
> > > notice "mom" is missing and she'll start looking for
> > > you rather frantically. Then someone alerts you and
> > > you come back, calling her excitedly.
> > Yes but that's more of a punishment. Not that it's not
> > a valuable tool, but we're talking about two different
> > things. One is asking for control before something happens
> > and rewarding control with access to the desired activity,
> > the other is reacting to a situation when it's already
> > gotten OUT of control.
> > Dogs with drive need to learn how to channel and direct
> > that drive. It's fun to watch them because it's great to
> > have a motivated dog and everyone is scared to shut them
> > down. On the other hand, you must be able to focus and
> > control that drive or you will never have a consistent
> > performer.
> > And the best way to do that is to help the DOG learn
> > how to reward himself.
> > Instead of you demanding something from him and the
> > situation continuing to escalate as you both get more
> > frenzied, you are calm and you simply wait for the dog
> > to be calm. This might be a LONG wait in some instances,
> > but you've got to do it.
> > And you have to know what you're looking for and
> > reward it *instantly* with a release to the desired
> > object/behavior.
> > So if my goal is to have attention from my dog at
> > the beginning of an agility routine, I will wait
> > for her to focus on me by looking at me for a few
> > seconds.
> > I will then release her to the equipment. As time
> > goes by, I will ask for more focus and direction.
> > Eventually I want her to be able to work with a
> > favored toy in full view, and know that she must
> > perform what I want to get it.
From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 18:23:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Thou Foul Beast, Thou Basest Worm...
HOWEDY robin,
You're a MENTAL CASE.
If you can't pupperly handle dogs you shouldn't
be takin care of them. Fancy that, you talkin
abHOWET "Thou Foul Beast, Thou Basest Worm..."
"Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:fWSfc.3645$0b4.11722@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> I have a houseguest this weekend, Jura, a Scottish
> im****t Springer. And Cala (2 year old Dobe) is just
> being SO insufferable. Now mind you, she knows this
> dog, she's known him since he was a baby puppy and
> he's now a year old. But she's discovered that as
> he's a mere MALE and she's a *****, she can reduce
> him to quivering jelly. And she's really, really
> enjoying it.
> I'm always reminded of the scene in McCaig's Nop's
> Trials where Nop totally falls in love with the b**ch
> in the next run, and for days she spurns him in formal
> verse. Cala is telling Jura,
> "Thou foul beast, thou basest worm, thou artst s***,
> thou art not fit to lick the dung from the bottom of
> mine feet."
> All this is accompanied by extravagant facial expressions,
> typically showing each of her 42 teeth in glorious, ****ning
> white.
> And poor Jura is awed.
> "Oh, thou artst beauteous, might I be permitted
> to wor****p thou toenails?"
> Now mind you, this is TOTALLY different than what
> happens when Nell stays here. Nell, dingo-dog, 10
> years old and 30 pounds of tough, walks into this
> house and owns it. Viva tolerates her benignly (just
> like she's doing with Jura). Cala gives her a very,
> very wide berth.
> Poor Jura.
A Poor Shepherd Boy And His Dog At His Masters Feet.
|
