HOWEDY tommy sorenson aka not so handsome,
not so happy, not so gentle, not so manly, jackass,
not even jack morrison aka joey finnochiarrio aka
howie lip****z aka BIG DADDY aka DOGMAN,
a.k.a. *****MAN, you pathetic miserable stinkin
anonymHOWES malignant maliciHOWES lyin dog
child an spHOWES abusing punk thug coward active
accute chronic life long incurable mental case and
paranoid homophobe, misogynist, puppy miller and
shock collar salesman,
"Handsome "Jack" Morrison" <handsomejackmorrison@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
message
news:0mfb4457mjp7nnc9jlvu15gai3gbd62r97@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:23:46 +0100, Phil Odox
> <philodox@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
By NHOWE Phil knows he's entertraining pathetic
miserable stinkin rotten lyin dog murderin cowards.
>>I personally don't believe they have self-control,
>>and I don't believe they can learn it from us, either.
HOWEver, Phil still got a lot to learn abHOWET dog trainin.
> Dogs *learn* self-control through operant and classical
> conditioning (pretty much like all the rest of us do).
NOT AT ALL, tommy. So called operant CONditioning means
force bribe and intimidate the dog. Classical CONditioning means
ignore and avoid and allHOWE the dog to "learn" on ITS own.
> In the process of training a dog, he's given op****tunities to make
> decisions. And from that process, he *learns* that if he makes the
> right decision, he's rewarded (through positive or negative
> reinforcement).
WRONG AGAIN, tommy. "NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT"
mean NO response from the "trainer". "POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT"
means SUMPTHIN is ADDED, like a nice jerk choke or shock or cookie.
> But if he makes the wrong one, he's punished (through
> positive or negative punishment).
Wrong again, tommy. All you know is HURT and INTIMIDATE.
B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment:
Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused,
actually has been proven not effective at long-
term behavioral change, and creatures will find
other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom
and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter
1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states:
If we no longer resort to torture in what we call
the civilized world, we nevertheless still make
extensive use of punitive techniques in both
domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for
good reasons. Nature if not God has created man
in such a way that he can be controlled punitively.
People quickly become skillful punishers (if not,
thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative
positive measures are not easily learned.
The need for punishment seems to have the sup****t
of history, and alternative practices threaten the
cherished values of freedom and dignity.
Fear involved with punishment causes frustration:
with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy.
Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive
reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior
have proved very valuable.
----------------------------
> Which eventually results in some manner of
> self-control on the part of the dog.
NOT UNLESS the "OPERATOR" is standin right there
ready to JERK CHOKE SHOCK or give IT a cookie, tommy:
In the followin SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH STUDY you may
substitute pronged spiked pinch or slip choke collars for shock
and add PUNISHMENT, SCOLDING, CRATING, and offering
and witholding rewards, attention, and affection:
Psychological Effects
At issue is the question, --Do electronic training
devices elicit psychological responses?
"This section cites several research studies in which the
psychological impact of the use of electronic training devices
was analyzed. It is difficult, at best, for anyone to determine
the full psychological effect of these devices or training methods
until we can agree on exactly what constitutes a stress signal in
a domestic dog. Not only do none of the researchers agree on
what it is, but it varies from dog to dog.
It is even more difficult for humans to determine the full effect
of shock on a dog (or any animal) due to the animal's hard-wired
need to hide pain in order to survive in the wild.
Training dogs with the help of the shock collar: Short and long
term behavioral effects. (Schilder, M. & van der Borga, J. (2004).
Applied Animal Behavior Science, 85, 319-334).
The goal of this study was to determine the behavioral changes in
dogs during training using electronic training collars. Thirty-two
dogs were divided into two groups, each receiving both general
obedience and protection training.
One group was trained with shock collars and the other group
without shock collars. The dogs trained with the shock collars
displayed signs of stress: lowering of body posture, high-pitched
yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirected aggression, and
tongue flicking.
It was also noted by the authors that, even during play and relaxed
walking, the group of dogs trained with shock collars continued to
show signs of stress while in the company of their handler.
The authors concluded that shock-collar training is stressful;
receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs; and the shock
group of dogs evidently learned that the presence of their owner
(or his commands) announced the reception of shocks, even
outside of the normal training context.
They suggest that the welfare of these shocked dogs is at
stake, at least in the presence of their owners.
This study has come under considerable fire because the experience
of the handlers and dogs is not clear, and the level of shock is not
stated. With that said, it does suggest that dogs are stressed by the
experience of being shocked during training.
---------------------
> Yes, even a dog can figure this out in a matter of minutes, and
> without ever having read Skinner, Pavlov, Thorndike, et al.
INDEEDY. And perhaps you should try readin
Skinner, Pavlov, Thorndike, et al, tommy?:
"Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV:
"Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative
physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of
Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy
of Sciences, Moscow:
The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and
freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared
with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the
resistance to coercion," respectively, described by
contem****ary ethologists.
On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose,"
conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive
emotions arising in connection with the perfection of
a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at
a given moment, serve as the reinforcement.
The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a
phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction
as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was
demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the
state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in
rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical
activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e.,
by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man.
Simonov PV</h4>
Publication Types:<ul><li>Review</li><li>Review,
tutorial</li></ul>PMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681</blockquote>
<doctype>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=2215892&am
p;form=6&db=m&Dopt=bNeurosciBehavPhysiol1990May-Jun;
20(3):230-5
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
Author and professional dog trainer LeeCharlesKelley wrote:
Thanks, Jerry, that's a helpful bit from the guy
who started it all. This shows what we've been
saying: that teaching the dog to play fetch,
regardless of its usefulness in the eventual
search part of the training program, is a
powerful motivator and reinforcer.
Of course these idiots (pardon my being blunt)
don't see using food and clickers as being a
form of coercion. Maybe they've been hypnotized
by Karen Pryor, et al:
Freeze Frame <{}: ~ ) >
From: canis55 <cani...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 1999/09/28
Subject: Dear Marilyn Re. Ness
Dear Marilyn,
I just visited your updated site. The two Ness pages are great.
Freezing the video frames to reveal the emotional impact a
leash correction has on a dog was a wonderful idea.
Lee Kelley did something similar to a Brian Kilcommon video.
The difference is we were focusing on the emotional impact a
leash correction has on the trainer. When you do this to a training
video you can clearly see the tremendous emotional charge some
of these trainers are getting from hurting dogs.
It's a strange business, this dog training. I wonder what motivates
any of us to engage in it. I'm suspicious of anyone who says they
do it because they love dogs. I know a lot of people who claim to
love what dogs represent to them, and yet they don't become trainers.
I don't think this is because they love something else more.
I think there is a difference between loving what dogs represent
to us and loving what training them creates in us or even creates
in them for that matter.
It's a complicated process and perhaps many of us have lost sight
of what we're doing. I read books and articles that matter of factly
explain how to systematically inflict pain on dogs in an effort to
create a desire to perform tasks that I often see dogs performing of
their own accord. I know many of these behaviors can be shaped
and encouraged to the same degree of reliability without all the
violence and pain.
Where they can't (if that's the case), I wonder why we think
a dog should perform a task that is so repugnant to its nature,
that we must resort to violence and coercion to compel them
to participate.
Maybe I have far too much respect for dogs, but when I read
this stuff it sounds like slavery and involuntary servitude to me.
I can't see much difference between what we're doing to them
(for their own good) and what my country men did to the African
peoples for nearly half a century.
It's hard for me to accept that I'm surrounded by so much
madness, but I have to go with my heart on this one. Most
of what we demand from dogs--if not all of it--will be offered
willingly and enthusiastically if we only learn how to request
it in a manner they can comprehend.
If it turns out that I have to attack a dog to get it to do or to not do
something, then maybe the dog isn't supposed to do what I think it
should.
The whole thing's so complicated that I can't really express it. I
just know I don't like some of the stuff I'm seeing or reading about.
--
I trains'em as I sees'em.
----------------
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill
School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back
In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They
Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their
Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK!
The Embry Study:
"While some may find it strange that reprimands
might increase the chances of a child going into
the street, the literature on the experimental analysis
of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention
to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of
more inappropriate behavior.
Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason
with their children about da****ng into the street will
likely to have the opposite impact.
Reprimands do not punish unsafe behavior; they reward it."
Source:
"Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to
Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic
Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Research Re****t
Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project."
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And
Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The
Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies.
"All animals learn best through play," Lorenz.
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) re****t a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are re****ted to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated.
Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well
established in research than the various dynamic
therapists."
Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of
programmed systems for learning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST
SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers."
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966).
Some clinics have re****ted ELIMINATION of the
need for child THERAPY through changing the
clinical emphasis from clinical to parental
HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents tem****arily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
Why Do You Reward The Dog For Being Bad?
Was:
Punish Dogs Children SP-HOWESESWith PRAISE,
Unconditional LOVE, TRUST, And RESPECT
<{) ; - ) >
Always praise the dog to show him that you affectionally
sup****t or love him. Praising the dog has nothing to do
with what he has just done, it has to do with your
relation****p with him.
"Good dog" means "I love you, dog".
If the dog is anxious, then you make certain that he
knows that he is in a safe and trusting environment.
You praise and admire him.
Correction is the opposite signal, you are my enemy,
and this results, quite naturally, in the dog behaving
aggresively - why not, you've declared that you are his
enemy.
Why does paradoxical reward work?
The dog defecates on the floor. You come up and say
"Good Dog" you love and praise him.
THE DOG KNOWS YOU LOVE HIM.
The dog defecates on the floor because he is anxious.
No wild wolf, jackal, or coyote defecates in his den.
If he defecates in his den its because a bear is outside
trying to get in and eat him.
The dog knows that it is stupid to
defecate where he eats or sleeps.
Don't you?
If the dog feels safe he'll behave as if he
is safe, no pooping on the living room floor.
Almost all maladaptive behavior is due to fear, anxiety,
expectation of disaster. Correct the situation, and the
dog behaves fluently like a ..... Dog!
Punishment deranges behavior, it is never never never appropriate.
Love the dog.
Praise is never punishment, praise is like giving a
piece of steak. If you give a piece of steak to a dog
after he defecates on the floor he'll stop defecating
on the floor.
Fondly, Dr. Von
----------------
> Amazing, huh?
Yeah, AMAZING, eh, tommy??
> But you?
>
> No, I think you ought to go to the library and do some reading about
> Behaviorism, and then come back and try again.
I think Phil can skip the trip to the library, don't you, tommy?
Disciple Paulie Sez: "No One Understands How Wits End
Training Really Works, They Assume It's All Nicey Nicey
And don't Realise It's A Very Disciplined Method That
Deals With Any Situation And The Foundation Is Built
On Trust And Understanding."
Disciple Paulie Writes:
I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell them
they are good dogs and they seem to follow me, once
I told them they were bad dogs and they ran away from
me, now I only ever tell them they are good dogs and
they always are, always.
Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and
say "good dog" sincerely at the end of the
request and I bet you'll find your dog thinking
then responding everytime.
A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule
applies to every aspect of the relation****p with
your dog.
Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.
Paul.
Subject: Here's A Word From C...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2002-01-29 11:53:56 PST
"Jerry Is On A One Man Jihad To Expose
And Discredit Dog Abusing Trainers"
Hello People,
Here's a word from CEO @[EMAIL PROTECTED]
:
Hello Fans,
As the leading dog behavior and training
guru/personality of our times, and as the
ceo of the most im****tant dogcasting
network on the planet, I think it's only fair
that I jump in here and break it down a little
like this.
I specialize not only in dogs, but in making
complicated issues easy to understand.
Which brings us to Jerry Howe.
Jerry Howe knows moore about dogs and dog
trainers and dog training methods than anyone
who participates here. As for me, I have more
skill than anyone here. As a result, I can train
dogs brilliantly, and dramatically, even offleash
on busy four lane highways in the concrete
wastelands of America...
http://dogtv.com/4LANE3.rm
without having to worry about following any of Jerry's
rigid guidelines for training dogs, or breaking any of the
rules in his "gestalt" approach. And, for that matter,
without having to rely on non-Jerry methods such as
shock collars or having to use force which makes my
dogs "will to resist fade in im****tance."
You see, fans, I got my own methods, and you'll be
finding out about those presently
HOWE-ever, this is about Jerry, so let's talk Jerry.
Most newbies here, or other people who are struggling,
clueless and frustrated and doing things to train
their dog that they know they should not do, or would
rather not do, which either aren't working, or are even
making things worse, etc...and so forth, can, via
following the techniques in Jerry's FREE manual, get
excellent results in a short period of time.
He'll tell you HOWE, and I'll tell you WHY.
Most of you have heard of Pavlov's bell, where dogs
became conditioned to salivate at the sound of a bell
after they were repeatedly fed immediately after the
sound of the bell.
That's called conditioning.
And, while Jerry forcefully argues against the use of
what he calls "food bribes" (which is HOWE, many
other kinds of animals are trained, for instance,
dolphins) dogs can be trained/conditioned with or
without the use of food.
Jerry chooses to go the non food route exclusively,
and claims to get effective results, quickly, in virtually
any kind of dog or situation. Nothing in my brilliant
guru-ness leads me to believe that he is not being
truthful with most of his claims about his training
methods.
And scientific conditioning, which applies and is
effective on all dogs, and most other mammals
and higher life forms, is the basis of Jerry's training.
This is why, when Jerry says "a dog is a dog is a dog"
he is correct, in a sense.
Yes, there are breed differences, but yes, all dogs,
regardless of breed, can be conditioned using
scientific methods.
As for Jerry's behavior here, I'm not a human trainer,
and I don't try to train humans. But I do deal with people
in the same brilliant way that I deal with dogs. I don't
keep doing something which isn't working in order to
try to get people to behave, any more than I try to do the
same w/ dogs.
The moore you try to force Jerry, or put Jerry in a
Time Out or re****t him to his ISP, the worse his
behavior gets.
Jerry is on a one man Jihad to expose and discredit
trainers who use this same idea of escalating punitivism,
on dogs, which Jerry believes is responsible for causing
the best dogs to get killed because of the fact that they
will not submit to this linear approach of escalating
force and punishment.
His classic example of this phenomenon is a german
shepherd named "Fritz" (do a google search).
Many of Jerry's critics have a vested interest in
Jerry being crazy. Because if he isn't, it makes them
crazy for preaching that Jerry is crazy, so hard and
for so long.
But regardless, to anyone interested in training
their dog effectively without force or punishment,
Jerry's mental state is irrelevant and his advice is
generally excellent, if sometimes overbearing.
And finally, Jerry's approach is especially valuable
for interrupting, stopping or extingui****ng unwanted
behaviors. I'm not so sure howe good it is when it
comes to getting creative results out of dogs, or for
teaching dogs tricks or complicated sequences (at
least as far as I can tell).
My only caveat with Jerry's method is that the idea of
extingui****ng behaviors is kind of like extingui****ng
biodiversity or any other resource. Each behavior is
a resource to me, not necessarily a problem to be
extinguished. You have to be careful what you
extinguish.
But, like jerry says, dogs don't do right or wrong,
they do "dog." And his method does not punish
them for doing wrong. It only tries to extinguish
certain aspects of "dog" which can be problematical
for people.
That's all for now, gotta go back to my new job at an
IT expert. It's a long and grueling one mile walk from
home.
--
this is michael
re****ting live...
from the even faster loading
http://dogtv.com
-------------------
> Unless you just enjoy your life here as a human piņata?
Well tommy, Phil could just IGNORE the lyin animal
murderin cowards who'd abuse him for not wantin to
HURT and INTIMIDATE his doggy, couldn't he?
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
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