HOWEDY paul e. schoen, you pathetic miserable stinkin
rotten lyin animal muderin punk thug coward active acute
chronic life long incurable malignant maliciHOWES
MENTAL CASE,
"Paul E. Schoen" <pstech@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:484727ec$0$4950$ecde5a14@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "Melinda Shore" <shore@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:g273mt$5mi$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> In article <jfE1k.257$RY.155@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
>> tiny dancer <tinydancer357@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>I had neighborly and politely offered to take care of her when
>>> they were out of town. I'd offered my daughters to walk the
>>> dog anytime. I said something like "I can empathize with how busy
you
>>> are with young children,my daughters would
>>> love to be able to walk the dog or help in any way."
>
>>>We were continually rebuffed.
A WIZE IDEA:
---------------------------
"Although, when we first got Gracie, she was a bit dog
aggressive, and I did grab her by her collar, shouting NO
at her in my most firm commanding voice, and slam her
down to the ground and hold her there.
She weighs about 70 pounds. And doing that only a couple
times, taught her dog aggression was not acceptable behavior.
She no longer does it. But if there is a new dog present, and
I have the slightest doubt as to how she might react, I make
sure she is on a leash until I'm positive she won't be aggressive
towards it."
"I use my prong collars on the dogs when I do something
like that, just to be extra cautious because I have a child
with me. I want to have the best control over them as
possible, just in case they see a cat or something on our walk.
We do tend to see more critters out here in the country, and
the dogs aren't accustomed to all that yet. Lots of people out
here let their dogs roam freely, plus the cats, and we even
come upon the occasional horseback rider. I haven"t had
the time to work with them as much as I'd like yet, because
of my ruptured disc's. I have to take it easy for a few more
months per my physical therapist.
Hope this might help you some,"
"Gracie has never bitten anyone either, and she does warm
up to people I *introduce* her to immediately. But I think
if anyone was hurting/trying to hurt one of us, she'd protect us.
She's very much an alpha dog in her behaviors.
I have to continually work at convincing her that I am the
pack leader around here, not her. ;-) I always win, but
she does keep trying to challenge my authority.
And when she stands up on her back legs, she's just about
as tall as me, 5' 5". So when she throws herself at the front
windows, barking and growling, she does look quite intimidating
to strangers."
"Merlin, on the other hand, is the total opposite of Gracie. He
constantly gives us 'the look'. He has a real attitude. When I
call him, he gives me the "why should I come" look. The "I
don't feel like it" look.
He can be very frustrating at times.
But he's big and goofy and playful, and we love him just
as much. He had two homes before ours that didn't work
out. And in some ways I can see why.
He's a free spirit, a tease, a big play-baby.
He will position himself at one end of the dining room table,
and run me around it like a pro. He watches everything we
do, in order to decide if he chooses to participate."
"Now bo, do you remember what I told you one does if
their dog does something objectionable? You grab it
by the collar, put the dog down into a postion of
submission, and hold it there until it understands it's
place in order of the pack.
And when I use the term 'pack' here, I'm not referring
to four dogs. I'm referring to dog/human. And need I
even mention the fact that these were Rottweilers/Chow mixes????
I think pretty much everyone here who know's anything about
dogs has voiced their opinion about avoiding CHOWS. You
certainly don't go out and breed a CHOW with a rottie to get
a better PROTECTION dog.
If I've forgotten anything else, please feel free to remind me."
-----------------------
HOWEDY tiny dancer,
"tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:AHxRi.4040$Ia....@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Shelly" <scouvre...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:ff68d8$tmu$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> "Luna" <lunaj...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>> news:QXwRi.76780$1y4.12066@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > Yeah, but different isn't bad. Remember?
>> That *is* what I said. Not different? Kind of worrisome.
>> You might want to look around for pods.
>> Anyway, I'm not at all averse to insulting people, when I think
>> they're acting like total douchebags. If you don't understand the
>> difference between that and calling people names, you might
>> want to have your mother explain it to you. And *that* being
>> said, I'm not even opposed to calling people names, but there
>> are limits. I think names like "****" cross an im****tant line.
>> YMMV, obviously, but only if you are a total douchebag.
> LMAO. Perhaps you should post a list of what's acceptable
> and what isn't in that little mind of yours.
> Let's see, douchebag is in the acceptable column, **** is in the
> unacceptable column. Can we all say hypocrite. And who died
> and made you boss of what's acceptable and what isn't when
> it comes to insults? One persons *snide* different, could be
> another persons ****.
> td
Thank you for clarifyin that, td <{}: ~ ) >
Did you learn all that from your daddy?
Newsgroups: alt.sup****t.trauma-ptsd
From: "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:44:18 GMT
Subject: Re: the jungle (trigger warning)
Hi, I guess here is where one puts triggers??
Your experience triggered a memory in me of the same
sort of situation. I too was in my closet, preparing for a
move, going through boxes of things, sorting, whether
to move or discard. I came upon a box I hadn't opened in
years.
My ptsd is due to an abusive childhood.
So I opened this box and found a small red book, a diary.
I kind of remembered the book, seeing it before. All of my
early memories were repressed at this time in my life.
So I eagerly opened the book to see what was inside. I began
reading a page at random. I don't recall what it said, I just
remember whatever it said triggered horror in me.
I threw the book across the room, screaming, crying hysterically.
I did that for a long time, until I was cried out, exhausted, then I
mechanically walked across the room to where the diary had landed,
picked it up, took it all the way outside, through the
snow, to the trash cans. The waste basket in the kitchen
wouldn't do.
Something in me knew I had to get it out of the house.
I threw it in the trash can, went back inside, and continued on
as if it never happened. I didn't even remember it happening
at all until years later in therapy.
tiny dancer
----------------------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
"tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message news:r0KAi.
46252$Lu.41...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I have two rather large dogs, both of whom I
acquired after the puppy stage, I have to be immediate,
firm, harsh when controlling bad behaviors.
When one of mine displays a behavior such as the one
you described, I grab them by the collar and take them
down to their side, repeating NO in a strong, firm voice.
And I keep them down on their side until they submit, relax, etc.
Then I repeat the NO again before letting them back up again.
Don't know if this will help you much, but it does work with mine.
td
---------------------------
From: "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:41:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Just unbelievable
"diddy" <di...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:3C1A4C15.37C92B3B@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> I think the reason the issues of protecting dogs are because,
> Human relation****ps always involve pain, diplomacy, hard
> work in building, conditions, giving, and often unbelievable
> emotional damage.
> A dog is close and personal. Their fur soaks up tears, They
> don't judge.
> They are the only being who you can share your true self. It's
> unconditional. You give little and reap such enormous returns
>.They would give their life to you without a thought. Such noble
> beasts being tortured is beyond such comprehension that
> those blessed with such relation****ps is more than the
> passionate dog lover can bear.
> Such injustice goes past laws that bind people by government
> or sense. It's something much more primordial than that.
> We all know by law, a dog is property. That makes no sense at
> all. it just doesn't compute. It's far MORE than that. I am a
> basically non-violent person, and I can think of only one thing
> that would bring me to the point of murder. This wouldn't
> necessarily be personal defense, family defense, but without a
> doubt, the defense of my dog.
Totally agree with you here. And I think the laws should be
changed. A dog is much more than personal property, they
have enormous feelings and emotions. We who love them
have seen their emotions. In fact I read somewhere that dogs
feel things even more than humans.
Some dog researcher, can't remember his name. When one of
my daughters dogs died unexpectedly her other dog was devastated.
Coda was a huge chocolate lab, way too heavy for her husband
to move alone, so when we arrived at their house it took three
grown men to carry him out. After they carried him down to our
SUV her other dog Brandy went over to the spot where Coda had
lain, sat right down there. I went to sit beside her and comfort her
and as she looked up at me I saw a huge tear in each of her eyes.
She knew, she understood, and she 'hurt' deeply.
My own dog Murphy is very intelligent, understands most,
if not all, of what's being said, going on around her. If you
study most animals I think you'll find they share deep emotions.
In my opinion they should be valued, shown the same amount
of respect and protection under the law as we humans. I know
my opinions probably don't conform to most, but I value life,
any life, and I don't value a human life 'more' than that of my
dog.
If anyone hurt my dog I wouldn't think twice about shooting
them if that was the only way to make them stop. She is just
like any other member of my family.
tiny dancer
-----------------------------
LIKE THIS:
Newsgroups: alt.sup****t.trauma-ptsd
From: "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 05:00:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Highs and Lows
Sorry to hear about your awful week! :-( And also sorry guys, I
sent a blank message before this, just haven't had enough coffee
yet to think straight, (and daughter just called, asked if **** bag
could come back to stay today, so I guess I spoke too fast, grandma
probably will have it on her oriental carpet yet! They
are moving this weekend, that's why doggie stays here!)
Anyway, Kat I'm really sorry to hear about your asthma. I
know how that can be as all three of my girls had asthma.
Two of them pretty bad.
Sorry this has taken so long, but it's been a rough week! Yes, I
said yes again! :-( She had my son in law, whom I adore, call.
They brought **** bag over first thing in the morning, set her
down in the kitchen and she immediately ran into my living
room and **** on the oriental carpet again!
Honestly, no lie! So that shot my *high* for the week all to hell!
Then I got roped into watching her Monday again.
I could just kick this daughter in the ass!
She knows because she's pregnant she can get away with more.
The house they rented doesn't allow pets, so the idiots went ahead
and rented it anyway and when work people are supposed to come
to the house I get stuck with **** bag!
Grrrrrrrrrr Somethings gonna have to give because
I'm sick of it already and they just moved in Saturday!
-------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.animals.dog
From: "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:35:41 GMT
Subject: Re: DUDLEY AND DYLAN
My daughter did bring the crates, but if you put Monty in a crate
she howls and cries until you take her out again. I've been trying
to keep her awake, outside in the fresh air, running and playing
all day. She does get tired and sleep eventually, but so far I'm
only getting about 5 hours sleep a night.
She goes to sleep much earlier than I'm able to, and is up
again much before I'd like! :-( Thank goodness one of my
other daughters came by today and ran them around the back
yard with tennis balls for a good part of the afternoon as I was
so exhausted I just collapsed on my bed!
Only four more nights to go, hope I make it.
tiny dancer
-----------------------
Newsgroups: alt.animals.dog
From: "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:16:46 GMT
Subject: Re: puppy cries while chewing toys?
"weric" <we...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> we just adopted a 4 month old hound mix puppy (i think
> bloodhound and beagle) from a no kill shelter. he has a few
> squeaky toys and when he's chewing on them he whimpers /
> cries. why is that? could this be part of teething, or maybe the
> squeaking bothers him?
> anyone else ever have this? is it a problem?
I don't think it's any problem, murphy does that sometimes.
I always took it to be some show of emotion, who knows what
goes through their minds sometimes. Sometimes, if she's got
something really special, she'll pace around the house crying
'searching' for just the right hiding spot, as if hubby or I might
steal it!
Since she's an only child it's not as if some
other dog is going to come along and 'find' it. :-)
td
------------------------
From: "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:03:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Help with barking
"pfoley" <pfol...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:13f8b85ahaeac27@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:WvVIi.72174$U24.30092@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > "Melinda Shore" <sh...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> > news:fd15ab$noo$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > In article <46f512f0.11294...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
> > > **Dalin** <l...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > > > I have trained her to heel and to come and to sit, to not
> > > > jump on people, I just haven't had any luck with the
> > > > barking.
> > > I find barking to be a particularly difficult one to break.
> > > I had a collie x who was a big-time barker.
> > You want dog talk. Okay, I'll give you dog talk.
> > Barking, Cesar Millan's technique worked perfectly well
> > for my two. Oh, it takes a bit of effort. But my barkers
> > are learning. They love to hang out upstairs at our front
> > windows and rule the neighborhood by barking at everyone
> > who dares to cross in front of our home.
> > I calmly and quietly move my body in front of them,
> > *claiming* the window as *my territory*. And I
> > back them away from the window and what ever is
> > outside there enticing them to bark. And ya know
> > what, it works like a charm. I'm at the point where
> > I no longer have to actually get up and go over to the
> > window to *claim it* anymore. I simply say their
> > names and stand up. Where upon they begin backing
> > away from the window all on their own.
> > I've been working on it about a week now, I say I'll give
> > it one more week and I think, by the way they have been
> > responding to this training, my barking at the window
> > problem will be solved.
>
> > Now go ahead, have at me about Cesar.
> > Since his walking on the leash training was a snap for me,
> > I have no doubt the window training will also be a success.
> > td
> Yes, td, it does seem to work. That is what I suggested Dalin,
> also, to stop her dog from barking at the front door. I have also
> used that method with my dog when she tries to go up to
> someone who visits me, looking for pats. I move in between
> her and the guest, point and tell her where I want her to go,
> and she does it.
> She does sometimes try to muscle in a couple of more times
> though, but I keep repeating it.
> Actually what we are doing is taking the power away from
> the dog and ****fting it to ourselves by claiming that space.
I've found the *calm assertive* method
to work for me in everything I've tried.
Good luck in your efforts! Sometimes training the
people is almost as hard as training the dogs. ;-)
I have to continually repeat, 'ignore them until they behave'.
No acknowledgments, no pets, etc., ignore them.
best,
td
-------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.sup****t.loneliness
From: "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 04:28:40 GMT
Subject: Re: Beer
So glad to hear Muffin is doing better. Just got home from the
hospital today myself, no malignancies but I'm in alot of pain
and can't sit at the computer more than a few minutes. Do we
know what was wrong with Muffin??
Again, I'm so glad to hear about Muffin, I just can't tell you how
much better that makes me feel. My own baby had reached her
limit last night and was about to have a nervous breakdown without her
mama.
I was told she just stood there shaking, teeth chattering, she
was a real basket case. Needless to say, she too is feeling
alot better tonight. :-) Murphy is a lab/springer spaniel mix
and she's 10 years old now.
She had an ultra sound last summer and if at all possible
get them to let you stay with her. I told them Murphy
would be alot better if I was with her so they gave it a try,
and we did just fine.
She gets really "stressed" when seperated from us, but as
long as I held her front half in place and talked to her, and
a vet tech held her back half in place they didn't have to
sedate her to do the procedure. She weighs about 65lbs.
so she can be a handful.
Be sure to let us know what they find, as I've really been
thinking about her. Okay, my time is up, have to go lay
down again.
Best Wishes,
tiny dancer
-----------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.sup****t.trauma-ptsd
From: "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:12:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Why I'm so pissed off at whats going on
Hi Larry,
It's okay, they can maybe catch a couple of us off guard for a
little while but all they end up doing is showing us in some
ways how far we've come in our therapy.
Like for instance, I can't stand these women who say stuff
like "I don't know if I could ever shoot anybody?" in that
whimpy voice. I know I could blow away some asshole if
they were trying to get to me in a heartbeat.
I know I'd use the little Smith & Wesson my husband got
me, but I sure do like to rack up his Remington. I like the
feeling of power that sound gives me.
He says it would stop a bear and I believe that. And that's
why I like my big dogs around me. Whiskey, the ridgeback/
rottie mix has the grace and elegance of the ridgeback but
the rottie jaws all the way and she hates men.
It takes her a long time to warm up to the "good guys", bad
guys forget it. She loves women, but for some reason men
have to be around for quite some time before she accepts them.
We think she was abused by a man/men before we rescued
her because of her reactions to them. And you know those
ridgebacks were originally lion hunters so she runs like the
wind and has these incredible muscles in her whole body.
But when her jaws grab something my husband can pick all
80lbs of her off the floor and she just hangs on to whatever
she's got in her mouth. Murphy is only about 65 lbs, but
very protective also, and the new baby, although only about
30 lbs right now, looks to be the biggest of all judging by the
size of her paws.
She's a little hellion right now though, teething and biting
everything that gets in her way. She's replacing Coda who
died last year. He was 120lbs of muscle with the lowest
growl you'd ever want to hear, made peoples hair
stand on end when you heard that growl.
So see how far I've come with my therapy. I'm sure when I
began my therapist didn't ever in a million years think I'd end
up with a pistol and a pack of big dogs, but hey, he says
whatever works for you.
tiny dancer
==============
Newsgroups: alt.sup****t.trauma-ptsd
From: "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 04:38:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Why I'm so pissed off at whats going on
"Ming the Mirthless" <M...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:9qlkj2$tdd$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:husz7.10983$%B6.3590222@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Thanks Larry, you said it so well. Lots of us have similar
> > triggers and different reactions. I know that "deer in the
> > headlights" stance well. Frozen in fear. I wish I did that
> > fight or flight thing better. If I'm in the right place I can
> > sometimes do the fight, but if not the flight always escapes
> > me, it ends up being frozen in fear. So many times I've
> > opened my mouth to scream and nothing comes out,
> > even the scream is frozen inside.
> I bet you give a good blow job though.
> Ming
Ya know what Ming, I didn't really see how cruel you guys really
are over there in alt war, but I see it now. We've got others here
who might be triggered by this as I am.
Right now all I can say is I hope someday somebody rapes you.
tiny dancer
----------------
So see how far I've come with my therapy. I'm sure when I
began my therapist didn't ever in a million years think I'd end
up with a pistol and a pack of big dogs, but hey, he says whatever
works for you.
tiny dancer
-----------------
>> I'm not surprised. I try to keep busybodies and bigots at
>> arm's length, too, and I certainly wouldn't want one messing
>> with my dogs or entering my house while I was gone. It's a
>> safe bet that you're the kind of neighbor who goes through
>> the cabinets when she thinks nobody's looking.
Yeah, tiny dancer is nearly as F'd up as malinda an paulie.
>> I think the most appropriate context for all this is your
>> having offered your neighbor's race as an explanation for
>> why you thought he'd be fighting his pit bull. Really,
>> you're *exactly* the sort of person we need sitting in
>> judgement of other people's treatment of their animals.
Yeah. That's REALLY scary, td an you an paulie talkin abHOWET
other people's treatment of their critters <{}: ~ ( >
> It really is difficult to legislate what is right and
> appropriate in all situations.
Oh, INDEEDY, paulie <{}: ~ ) >
You can't legislate honesty and morality, paulie, you
pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin animal muderin
punk thug coward active acute chronic life long incurable
malignant maliciHOWES MENTAL CASE.
But you CAN legislate LAWS against MURDERIN
innocent defenseless dumb critters doin what comes
naturally to them.
LIKE THIS:
Paul E. Schoen on Sun Sep 02, 2007 wrote:
"I have a very vivid and terrible memory of the time when
my dog was viciously attacked by a larger dog in the woods
near our house. The girl who owned the dog was beating it
with a stick, and I stabbed it in the neck. Both dogs survived,
but after that, I always carried a stout stick with me when
walking our dog. This was back in the 60s, when leash laws
were very lax or non-existent, and before everybody was lawsuit
crazy, and when the few drug dealers and thugs in the few bad
areas of town were deathly afraid of all big dogs."
SEE?
> Laws need to be drafted as guidelines,
You mean, you can pick an choose which WON you want to obey,
kinda like HOWE your dogs obey your laws, eh, paulie??
> and enforced accordingly.
Well, we'll have to bring back floggin and stockades, eh?
> The language of this law seems to be excessively specific, and I don't
> think it will do much good, but may cause great hard****p
> on some dog owners and result in worse conditions for the dogs
> it is supposed to protect. It seems tailored to a busybody who might
> train a videocamera on a neighbor's tethered dog with a
> timer and wait until there is a consecutive three hour period of
> tethering, whereupon the tape could be used as evidence.
OR a busybody like yourself who'd like to make LAWS
which can be IGNORED like HOWE you IGNORE the
LAWS of NATURE.
> The basis for such action might very well be something other than the
> welfare of the dog, more likely just spite or vengeance for other
> perceived infractions or just dislike, or even bigotry as you suggest.
Seems you know ALL abHOWET THAT, eh, paulie??
> I know that it was not the best thing for Muttley to keep him tethered
> out back while I was away for as long as 12 hours at a time, but he
would
> not stay in the chain link kennel I had purchased for him, and
> I really did not have any better options.
You mean, like TRAININ Muttley, paulie?
Well, yes, you did, but you CHOSE to IGNORE them, paulie,
you pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin dog abusin coward:
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: House training and such...
Date: 2003-10-08 16:18:56 PST
I've been having a problem with my dog, Axel,
relieving himself in the house while I'm away
from home.
I've used TPW method's, and yesterday I was out
for 12 hours, and Axel didn't have one single "accident".
Today, I had hoped that the results would be just as
good - and they were (I was out for 11 hours).
The problem began when, as a puppy, Axel would
relieve himself in the house and I would point
at the mess and tell him "NO" or "Bad Dog".
That made him afraid to relieve himself in the
house or infront of me.
After I got TPW's training manual, I corrected my
mishandling of these instances.
When I came home to an "accident", I would simply
drop a can near the area and ask Axel "What's that?"
Then I would clean it up - with out showing him I was
the least bit upset about the mess, and when he looked
at the spot I would tell him "Good boy, you're a good dog".
This has been an ongoing problem, and thanks to the
Puppy Wizard, we've finally got it taken care of...
Also, Axel LOVES the cat's litter box...He enjoys the
"snacks" he can find in there...I followed TPW's methods
by alternating sounds and praising him while or before
he sticks his nose in it, and today, he's been going into
the room with the cat box and barking. That's because
he's thinking about getting into the box, but he knows he
shouldn't.
Thank you, Jerry, for all you help.
You've been a blessing to all of us.
AIMEE
-----------------------
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
):
I own a black an tan coonhound. We got him
as a puppy, and due to constant mishandling
(pulling on his lead, negative corrections, and
the occasional use of a bark collar) I ended
up with a very anxious dog.
I couldn't leave him home alone, I couldn't
crate him, I couldn't even take my dog for
walks because he feared EVERYTHING.
I was going to have to get rid of him if things
didn't turn around.
My husband and I searched the internet for
answers - AND WE FOUND THE PUPPY WIZARD.
For all of you disbeliveers out there HIS METHODS WORK!
I've followed his manual, and we now have a
dog that can be left home alone, that heels
on command, that can go outside and NOT
be afraid of everything he sees.
Not only have his methods helped our dog, but
our marriage has gotten better. We had fallen
into a rut - constant bickering and tension, we
never laughed or had FUN together - but now,
with the same mindset used in THE PUPPY
WIZARDS dog training, our communications
channels have opened, and we now work
together instead of against one another.
For all the "Literalists" out there, NO WE DID
NOT TEACH EACH OTHER TO SIT, STAY,
OR HEEL.
We simply eliminated the nagging and the acting out to get
NEGATIVE attention from one another since we weren't getting
the POSITIVE attention we wanted.
So, it's been proven - THE PUPPY WIZARDS METHODS WORK.
It's up to you to accept them. Yes, there's alot of blame
that we have to accept, but once we realize that we've caused
these problems to arise, we can strive to make things better.
AIMEE
*****************************
I THINK YOU GET THE POINT.
DON'T YOU.
> I provided a doghouse for him, and food and water, and I gave
> him affection and attention most of the time while I was home.
You're a lyin sack of crap. You jerked an choked and intimidated
him every chance you could to satisfy your fragile defective ego,
weak fearful mind and colossal inferiority complexes.
LIKE THIS:
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
Here's janet's CUSTOME MADE pronged spiked pinch choke collar:
http://tinyurl.com/5m6ppt
"J1Boss" <j1b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
Janet Boss
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL
cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog's
been sprayed in the face and the dog won't
know HOWE COME IT was MACED?
janet CONtinues:
> > My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.
> > I don't have anything against electronic bark collars, but they
> > should be used in conjunction with actually working at training
> > your dog(s).
They're DUMB ANIMALS these MENTALLY ILL LYING
DOG ABUSERS HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER.
-------------------
LIKE THIS:
Here's janet's "more positive experience"
with a REAL LIFE IN PERSTON "student":
Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
It is a shame that Muttley will probably be put
down (his appointment is next Wednesday),
Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
Hello everyone:
If you have followed some of my posts, you know
something about the ongoing story of Muttley, the
large GSD/Chow dog I have been trying to adopt
or place in a better home.
I will add a bit more history later in this post.
Last Tuesday, toward the end of Janet's obedience
class, Muttley and I had just finished fairly successfully
performing a sit/stay/come routine, and then he was
sitting by my side.
The final routine was to be a "down", which Muttley
has had some difficulty with, and frankly I have not
had the time to work with him much on that.
I was kneeling at his side, trying to hold his collar
while pu****ng his front legs down to the position,
while he resisted. Suddenly he lunged, knocking
me over onto the parking lot, and I lost grip of the
leash as I reflexively broke my fall.
Muttley took the op****tunity to attack a young black
male Lab to my left, and it was a very brutal attack.
Janet and the instructors tried to gain control, and as
soon as I could get to my feet I grabbed the leash and
pulled him off.
That was the end of the class, and the other dog,
Bernie, was taken to an animal hospital for treatment.
When everyone had left, Janet counseled me about
what should be done about Muttley.
She said this was more than ordinary aggression,
and only intensive (and expensive) one on one
training would have any chance at working, and
in any case, he was not suited to group training.
She advised me that Muttley could be dangerous,
and she recommended that he be euthanized.
"They can't all be saved".
<snip>
--------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
<snip>
If I did not have to worry about my cat, I would
probably keep him, and I am certain I could avoid
any more dangerous episodes. I probably would
not have taken him to obedience cl***** at this time
if that was not such a difficult issue, and if people
here had not essentially shamed me into doing so.
Then he would only be a bratty dog with a mind of
his own, but he would not have been identified as
dangerous.
--------------------------
BWEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA~!~!~!
Here's janet's REAL LIFE IN PERSON "student" paul:
#2 - 6/05/07
>> When I was training him under Janet's supervision
>> I was instructed to give it a ? firm yank as a correction.
>
> I advised you to use a prong collar, not give firm
> yanks on a chain choke collar. I hate the things.
>
>> She was able to get his attention with
>> just a quick tug, but I had to yank on it
>> hard enough to lift him off his feet to get
>> him to respond. Looking back now, I think
>> it was based on his fear, which he had for
>> her (as an unknown), but not for me
>> (whom he had learned to trust).
>
> He wasn't afraid of me. He knew I was a
> confident trainer. Fear has no place in dog
> training, as I told you THEN.
> Janet
It seems to me that applying stern corrections, by
popping a choker chain, prong collar, or whatever,
is a way to ensure compliance by instilling a fear
of further punishment.
Sure, if it is administered very consistently
by a confident trainer, the dog soon learns
to obey. There was no positive reinforcement,
so what remains is negative.
Also, I recall the time you were going to show me
how I could get Muttley to take his rawhide treat
from me without lunging for it. When you offered
it to him, he refused to take it. This IMHO is likely
a fear behavior.
Things have changed a lot since then, and I have
learned a lot, and Muttley has settled down quite
a bit. I probably still give him too much freedom
to think on his own, but that's just my way of
doing things, and that's probably not going to
change much. He may never win an obedience
medal, but I don't think he is dangerously out
of control, either.
Paul and Muttley
"I thought I was told that the way to get the dog to go
down was to make him sit and then step onthe leash.
That was awkward and didn't seem to work.
I will confess that I only tried the "down" position
once or twice at home, and I also often used it
instead of "Off" when I wanted him to stop
jumping on me or elsewhere I didn't want him to be.
I had to give him corrections every few seconds,
and also just about kick him, to keep him at my
left side.
Muttley is really a very sweet and loving dog, but
he needs more socialization with other dogs. However,
it is very likely that I will have him put down in a week."
Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
It is a shame that Muttley will probably be put
down (his appointment is next Wednesday),
-----------------------
HERE'S HOWE COME:
Subject: Re: redirected aggression
Date: 4/11/07
"Janet Boss" <ja...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:janet-730AB8.17321511042007@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
seems I have been dealing with this a bit lately.
Dog to dog and dog to person,, with dogs who are
obviously overstimulated by what's in front of them.
What's in front of them varies from people at the door
to dogs in their path or directly in their face. The dogs
in question all have very poor self control.
I have dog(s) with not-so-great-natural self control,
so it's something we constantly work on. We don't
have redirected stuff going on, because we have enough
obedience to avoid it.
While I know that's the big answer for the dogs in
question as well, I'm curious what things people have
found useful to redirect/focus/gain attention from
drivey dogs or just very distracted of over-the-top dogs.
We're having success with my recommendations, but I'm
always open to something novel that may be the hot ticket.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
BWEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA~!~!~!
Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> <j...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, clicked their
> heels and said:
> Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say
> I beat dogs, choke dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks
> for your clarification.
responding to my own post, I had to go back and look
at the original post, to remind myself what "we" are all
accused of doing:
"screaming, choking,
shocking, pinching, beating
the living crap out of your dogs"
Scream? no
Choke? no
Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort
by a prong collar, go ahead, but unless you have first
hand experience with one, your opinion means nothing.
Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists
-------------------------
SEE?
> It took a long time before he seemed to settle down and become reliable
> enough to leave in the house. He actually "told" me that he wanted to
stay
> in, rather than be put out, and he earned his privilege by proving his
> reliability.
That so?
You can HOWEstrain your puppy in WON DAY if
you simply DO EVERY THING EXXXACTLY
PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE the self professed
EXXXPERTS who's own dogs GOT THE SAME
PROBLEMS for the SAME REASONS recommend.
LIKE THIS:
From: Mike (m.bidd...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?
Date: 2004-07-15 12:28:54 PST
Alan,
The puppy wizard calls it as he sees it.
He isn't PC and that pisses people off.
The fact is that I have used his FREE
methods and they DO in fact work.
What a crock of **** relating his methods
to a science experiment.
Yes, the man is a cross posting menace
and has proly smoked too many batts in
his day but he has the canine species best
interest at heart and doesn't profit from his
point of view.
He is a selfless advocate for dogs and
that's enough for me to respect the man
no matter how controversial he gets.
Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said.
Mike
From: Mike (m.bidd...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?
Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST
> > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said. Mike
> Ok Mike which part worked for you?
It helped clear problems from my dogs in the
field using the can penny distraction technique.
Works like a charm. My dogs get distracted easy
from their jobs ie, retrieving or training to find lost
people, oh did I mention that I am a Search and
Rescue Team Leader.
Sorry that slipped my mind.
I have read volumes of training books and don't
know where people get that Jerry copied others
work as I have NEVER come across his methods
before. I would like to see proof.
Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one
at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to
the way I wanted them but this is backward, you
train out the problems leaving what you want left
over.
Funny part is the second dog who had the same
problems as the other didn't need correcting for
some of his habits after I cleared it from the first
dog. Seemed he learned through osmosis.
Nice side benefit there.
It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party
trainer as they were not performing well. The
VAST majority of working dog trainers are
agressive in their actions with the dogs.
I tried it and it didn't work and guess what?
I was at my "Whits End" then someone I
knew turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history.
I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual
and all have had great results. Starting puppies
out on the distraction technique is especially
good because they never develop the habit.
I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down
stay reliably at 8-9 weeks.
The first night home following Jerrys advice
we ditched the crate and put the pup on the
floor beside the bed and after 2 whimpers
NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG FOR
6 HRS! first night, that has never happened
in all my days.
Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple.
Mike
--------------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Subject: In defense of Jerry Howe's methods
1 From: Deltones
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2005 3:30 pm
Email: "Deltones" <vibrov...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
I've had my JR puppy for close to a month now (She's
3 mo), and I want to say that I believe in Jerry Howe's
method for training my dog. I hate how he makes
Webster cry with his way of writing, and the fact he
quotes every damn posts written since the Big Bang
in every replies he does.
A lot of you consider their dogs as a part of your family,
but I read so many posts about screaming, choking,
shocking, pinching, beating the living crap out of your
dogs that I wonder why some of you have them at all.
Do you raise your kids that way, or you raise
them with kindness to the best of your abilities?
Yes, Jerry's online personnality totally sucks, and
he would be better served by having his Wit's End
do***ent speak for itself and reply to people with
the same kind of eloquence he shows in his manual.
Unfortunately he doesn't, and as a result, the majority
of people here tuned him out. If you hate the messenger,
don't disregard his message, and do yourself the favor
of downloading his manual and read it at least once.
Your dog deserves it.
Like previously stated, I have a 3 mo Jack Russell,
and a lot of people think these dogs become totally
insane when left alone.
Mine has the full run of the house when I'm at work already.
Why?
Because she did go totally insane when I left her in
her crate, crapping on herself in the process. It was
not fun.
I followed Jerry's advice and did the "Separation
Anxiety" method in the manual, and my house
has not been destroyed.
Dog happier, house not destroyed?
That's all I needed to know.
If you're wondering, nope, she's not housebroken yet,
and I do come back with her business on the floor.
Winter is starting here in Montreal and she really
hates going outside in the cold (sorry Jerry, it's really
not instinctive in her), so I know I will have some
difficulties with the housebreaking process.
Do I get frustrated to have to wash the floor every day?
Yeah I do, but I try my best not to show it to the dog.
That's the small price I decided to pay to have that
small furball in my life. I'm confident she'll get the
hang of it, but I know that it's not going to happen
with kicking and screaming.
Tune out Jerry if you want if he doesn't make sense
to you. But give his Wit's End manual a good look,
because when he wrote it at that point in his life, he did.
Denis
---------------------
> But it would have been a big problem for me if I could not have
> had the option of tethering him. I probably put him in some danger
> by clipping the tether to his choke chain as I did, rather than clipping
> to both rings so it would not choke, but I was fearful of him running
off
> and getting hurt, or endangering people or animals.
So, you HURT your dog on accHOWENTA you're AFRAID, paulie?:
From Frank to lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn:
"How fricken sick do you need to be to say a dog chooses to be
shocked or pronged or shot in the ass with a sling shot?
Chooses it over what?
Are you twisted pieces of human refuse offering a dog a selection
of torture devices, and observing them indicating their personal
preference of pain infliction?
I thought the whole idea behind aversion training was that the
subject does not choose it.
You Lynn thinking people are a bunch of abusive idiots. *YOU*
choose to hurt dogs. Fine. But the fact that you want to sell the
idea that the dogs that god and human society have entrusted,
have gifted to you, are actually empowered by your abuse, is an
example of sociopathic illogic beyond anything this ng has yet offered.
You're like some fricken wife beater who actually says "Don't make
me hit you, *****!" What part of what backwoods ****tion of which
idiot nation do you people reside in? THE DOG CHOOSES?
What is next?
we have so far
1. I hurt dogs to save their lives.
2. I hurt dogs to save people's lives.
3. I hurt dogs to accomodate their choice in being hurt.
Just hurt the dogs and don't try to explain it. Please, you're
scaring me with this stuff. No wonder why you guys get so
bent out of shape when others speculate as to your
motivation behind hurting dogs.
Their speculation seems more plausable then what you yourself offer.
You're so sick, so drunk with your "tools" of power, that you don't even
see the abusive egoism in your explanations. You people are way far
gone. It will be 20 years before you'll be embarrassed or ashamed
by what you write in here daily."
> That is just an example of education and getting advice from others with
> experience. I treated him with great kindness, while others do not
relate
> very closely with their pets.
That so?
> There definitely are "dog people", and "animal people", who quickly
> earn the trust of animals and know how to interact with them, while
there
> are others who are very tentative and fearful, and should not own pets.
Oh? Oh, you mean, LIKE THIS?:
From: Eric
To: jhowe2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Friday, November 29, 2002 7:54 AM
Subject: just checking in..
Jerry!
You helped me with my pal Dundee about a year ago
regarding submissive peeing. Just wanted to let you
know he's doing great- he was "cured" in about 2 days
using your techniques!
He has since become the "smartest dog in the world"!
Once I stopped thinking like a human and got inside his
head, I can teach him ANYTHING, usually in a matter
of minutes. Makes me look like an expert dog-trainer.
I rescued two strays last week, cleaned 'em up, wormed
'em, and am getting them their shots. Time to get inside
their heads and teach them to teach themselves how to
be good dogs!
Instead of feeling like "training" is a chore, I look forward
to working with these guys a couple times a day...
Although I don't follow your instructions "to a T", I learned
from you to "think like a dog" and stimulate their brain rather
than beating ass or pinching, or any of that nonsense.
I know damn well I would NOT be loyal to someone
who beat MY ass lol!
Well, just wanted to thank you for rattling the bushes
out there and teaching folks the RIGHT way to "train" dogs.
A horseman friend of mine uses very similar techniques in
training his horses- he calls it "natural horseman****p". He
is hated by nearly all the local "trainers" yet somehow he
repeatedly wins at every show he attends. He rarely shows
any more, but goes now and then to rub their noses in it
(pun intended)... Too cool....
Have a great holiday season and keep up the good work!
Eric , Dundee, Sammy, and Maynard
----------------
> I've always liked dogs (and cats, and other animals), but I did
> not have much experience with the direct care of a dog until I got
> Muttley.
You mean, other than STABBING a dog that attacked your
dog when you was a kid, while his owner beat IT with a stick?
> I now understand the strong bond that can develop between
> man and beast, and it seems that dogs are particularly "wired" for human
> interaction.
UNLIKE, say, folks like your BROTHER, who's inheritance
YOU STOLE on accHOWENTA he's a DRUNK, paulie?
> But I digress. People should work to create and sup****t "good laws"
> that can be enforced, rather than those like this one that attempt to
> micro-manage a problem.
INDEED?
> Paul and Muttley
paulie *ENJOYS*
HURTING and INTIMIDATING innocent defenseless dumb
critters DESPITE that THAT was the CAUSE of his TWO
DEAD KATS DEATHS:
HOWEDY paul e. schoen you pathetic miserable stinkin
rotten lyin animal murderin punk thug coward active
accute chronic life long incurable malignant maliciHOWES
mental case ignorameHOWES,
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:47e35abf$0$11054$ecde5a14@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Jenn" <jenn.e...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>
news:21e23d6f-d264-495d-94c1-a213bb318e9d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Mar 20, 3:31 pm, <DelusionalDimensionsRecovery...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> wrote:
>> What the hell is this? Is it just me or is this super psychotic?
>> (These are the people your parents warn you about lurking
>> around on the internet)
> Almost all usenet groups have one or more crazies.
INDEEDY. HOWEver, the animal groups got ALL crazies,
a.k.a. The Gang Of Pathetic Miserable Stinkin Rotten Lyin
Animal Murderin Punk Thug Coward Active Accute Chronic
Life Long Incurable Malignant MaliciHOWES Mental Case
IgnorameHOWESES an WON regular poster who has IDENTIFIED
EXXXPOSED and DISCREDITED them, AS PROVEN by
their own POSTED CASE HISTORIES <{}: ~ ( >
> Jerry is convinced that his method works 100% for
> any dog (or cat, or spouse, or slug),
Not quite, paulie. I've never tested my methods on slugs. You're
the closest inverterbrate to a slug that I've worked with, and my
methods DID work for you an Muttley, HOWEver, just like jenn,
YOU DIDN'T LIKE not hurtin and intimidatin your dog <{}: ~ ( >
AND IT WON'T WORK ON DEAD KATS either.
HERE'S PROOF:
Re: Rejected for obedience training (even evaluation)
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message news:
468f2c62$0$21031$ecde5...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote in message
news:1183778458.405615.146000@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> HOWEDY paule e. schoen,
> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:468dc6d8$0$11048$ecde5a14@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Now that my evaluation of Jerry's methods are complete
> You NEVER COMPLETED the first EXXXORCISE
It was unsuccessful when Muttley simply ignored
the constant praise and became confused. Maybe
that method works on high strung, needy dogs that
need to be calmed down.
> Yeah. HOWE COME you won't TRY using the NON
> VIOLENT methods I teach FOR FREE, paulie?
Your non-violent methods for dogs ring hollow
when you use verbal violence against other dog
owners, thus triggering their own opposition
reflexes. I will try other non-violent methods
that communicate what is expected of the dog.
And I don't believe that proper use of a prong
collar or choker chain are evil and physically
hurtful.
[snip verbal abuse]
So you think it is effective to withold praise,
but offer it as a bribe to get people to follow
your methods? Or promise you will stop beating
them if they obey your commands? Yet never do
it for a dog?
Paul and Muttley (almost fully recovered from
Arbitrary Praise Neurosis)
-------------------------
From:
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laborat...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sat, 07 Jul 2007 06:24:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Rejected for obedience training (even evaluation)
HOWEDY paul e. schoen,
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message news:
468f2c62$0$21031$ecde5...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote in message
> news:1183778458.405615.146000@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> HOWEDY paule e. schoen,
>> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
>> in message news:468dc6d8$0$11048$ecde5a14@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Now that my evaluation of Jerry's methods are
>>> complete
>> You NEVER COMPLETED the first EXXXORCISE
IN FACT, you NEVER STUDIED The Manual AS INSTRUCTED.
You see paulie, I was EXXXPECTING folks like you to come in
here BULL****IN me and therefore The Manual was written
in such a way as to be able to DIAGNOSE the BULL****ERS
from the STUDENTS who simply have difficulty with their dogs.
You're a BULL****ER and a DOG ABUSER and a COWARD.
> It was unsuccessful when Muttley simply
> ignored the constant praise and became confused.
You mean, when Muttley became UN AFRAID
of you jerking choking and intimidating him and
was waiting for you to resort to jerking and chokin
him again like HOWE you had PREFERRED to
do pryor to TRY bein KIND to your dog?:
From: <>
To: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Damned Family Leader****p Exercise -
Re: Am I expecting to much
Hi Jerry,
When I talked to you on the phone to order to machine
for daughter's new pup, I told you that I had an older
Chessie. I rescued him at 9 years old and have had
him for 3 years.
It's funny, but I thought I'd try some of your book
training with him. Where I used to say "come" and
then say "good boy" when he obeyed, I have reversed
it with a "good boy" first.
It really does work.
He was very confused at first, wondering
what he had done to get the praise.
But it really gets the attention and distracts him from
whatever he may have going through his brain when
he hears it.
Dogs are funny, but people are too. Can't wait to get
the Doggy do Right, etc.
Thanks,
N
> Maybe that method works on high strung,
> needy dogs that need to be calmed down.
The Method WORKS on ALL critters, even
wolves, children and ladies even better than
cookies and ****ny objects <{}: ~ ) >
>> Yeah. HOWE COME you won't TRY using the NON
>> VIOLENT methods I teach FOR FREE, paulie?
> Your non-violent methods for dogs ring hollow
> when you use verbal violence against other dog
> owners,
"Other dog owners", paulie? But not YOU.
You're gonna QUIT TRAINING Muttley withHOWET
HURTIN HIM on accHOWENTA I'm CRUEL to "other
dog owners" who JERK CHOKE SHOCK CRIPPLE and
MURDER their dogs?
> thus triggering their own opposition reflexes.
Seems you dislike "OTHER DOG OWNERS" being
verbally assaulted even more than Muttley dislikes
being jerked and choked, eh?
Would you be kindly enough to CITE where I was
CRUEL to you when you STOPPED HURTIN your
dog?
> I will try other non-violent methods
There AIN'T NO "other non-violent methods"
unless you mean BRIBERY / clicker idiocy:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon that
an expected reward not received is experienced as a
punishment and can produce extensive and persistent
aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)."
> that communicate what is expected of the dog.
robin CRIPPLED TWO of her dogs thanks
to her "COMMUNICATING":
From: Robin Nuttall (robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: Wobblers Syndrome
Date: 2001-01-08 14:35:28 PST
Ted Trostle wrote:
> I have a 9 year old female Doberman with this condition.
> Currently she is still mobile, but needs help with stairs.
> Surgery is not a option because of its expense, long term
> personal care and the surgery cannot fully correct the
> problem.
> I am looking for acupuncture treatments, chiropractic
> care etc. by Vets in Pennsylvania or Maryland.
> Please send me useful contact info or ideas that
> are known to be beneficial. I am not looking for a
> 100% cure, but I would like to provide a improved
> and better quality of life for this great dog.
Welcome to my world! As the owner of not one,
but two dogs severely affected with Wobblers (CVI,
Cervical Vertebral Instability), I can relate.
------------------------
BWEEEAAAAHAHAHAAA!!!
Wobbler's is CAUSED BY jerking on your dog's collar.
LIKE THIS:
From: "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:26:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Warning about Dog Trainer
There are pullers, then there are PULLERS. Viva
is one of the former, and has learned to walk
very nicely on a loose leash. I'm convinced that
Cala is genetically incapable of walking on a
loose leash.
She's almost 18 months old now, and we have been
working on the issue since I first put a leash on
her. She's so high drive that *nothing* I do is
as reinforcing to her as pulling. I can stand still
till I keel over--she just stands there at the end
of the leash, pulling as hard as she can. I can do
sneak aways until I am dizzy, we just get yo-yo
effect ("okay, I'll pull THIS way now!).
I can clicker her for loose leashes until my thumb
falls off--and she still pulls.
A click and treat is not as reinforcing as the world
around her. Our only real solution at this point is
the pinch collar, which keeps her from totally wearing
me out, or hurting herself by actually flipping at the
end of the leash.
I have a feeling this is something that she will only
develop with age, and will come regardless of any
training I do or don't do.
And yes, I've trained many, many dogs to walk on
a loose leash, but not this one...
Robin Nuttall.
-------------------------
SEEE???
> And I don't believe that proper use of a prong
> collar or choker chain are evil and physically
> hurtful.
NOT ONLY is it PHYSICALLY dangerHOWES
and CRUEL, it's EMOTIONALLY CRIPPLING.
If you read the recent thread "Laryngeal Paralysis"
you'd notice that EVERY VICTIM with LP is owned
by a dog choker like yourself. LP is CAUSED by
jerking and choking dogs as you'll see in this video
from elegy who MURDERED her newest "RESCUE
dog" for attacking her when she bribed crated jerked
choked and intimidated IT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzBtxevvcFs&mode=user&search=
From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:58:58 GMT
Subject: Re: Thinking Dogs
I was just thinking, I can't believe all the effort that's
been expended responding to this guy when he's clearly a
troll, and maybe even a persona of TPW. At least there's
been some good discussion of how clicker training is
successful and teaches dogs to think...
> "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:txeVe.324546$x96.272690@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Yep. Jen keeps saying, "Oh, I don't mean anything
> > negative" while continuously slamming people for
> > "cruel" methods that she can't even define.
Those who slavishly devote themselves to one type of
training and who condemn others are the poorer for it.
I clicker train. I use choke collars. I shape behaviors.
I use drive work for focus and intensity. I use pinch
collars. I use harnesses. I use food. I use positive
and negative punishment.
Some of these things I use frenquently. Some very
infrequently. I tend to focus my training in the
quadrants of positive reinforcement and negative
punishment, and am far more likely to eliminate
undesired behavior through ignoring it than any
other way.
I'll also grab my young dog by the collar, lift
her up on her back feet, and tell her to KNOCK
IT OFF in no uncertain terms when the little snot
gets into overdrive and bites me.
If you want to discuss training, discuss it here.
But be willing to listen as well as talk. And
please stop top posting.
Robn Nuttall.
From: "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:00:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Does your dog do this?
"Andrea" <andrea.sto...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote in message
news:dMB0b.13637$_P1.4916@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> The "sorry" look and licking is appeasment behavior.
> Dogs to it to avoid retribution, not because they
> really understand how to apologize. Really, you
> should just teach her some bite inhibition so that
> you don't get hurt, and she doesn't have to worry.
I totally agree, but with some dogs that's far
easier said than done.
Cala is finally showing signs of trying to keep
her teeth to herself, and it's been a constant
battle since she was a baby puppy. She's now 17
months old.
I have often been a total mass of bruises from
her releasing overdrive into a nip. Not that
she's ever full-out bitten me, but trust me,
those nips and pinches can be extremely painful.
The higher drive the dog is, the more difficult
it can be to deal with the issue.
Robin Nuttall.
----------------
> [snip verbal abuse]
paulie SNIPPED diddler's POSTED CASE HISTORY of
jerking choking and shocking timmy's a.k.a. buzzsaw's
dog Max to train IT to be NICE to kats <{}: ~ ( >
> So you think it is effective to withold praise,
WHO SEZ "withHOWELD praise"? YOU maybe.
THE METHOD SEZ CONSTANT INTERMITTENT
PRAISE and PRAISE IN ADVANCE.
You're acting like a stubborn little girl or needy woman.
And if you think witholding praise is CRUEL and
JERKING and CHOKING dogs is KIND, then
PERHAPS you're a candidate for frontal lobotomy
or ***ual reassignment surgery like michael ball
was tryin to get but was REJECTED?
> but offer it as a bribe to get people to follow your
> methods? Or promise you will stop beating them if
> they obey your commands? Yet never do it for a dog?
So, you're gonna PUNISH ME for bein CRUEL
to SADISTS who WANT to HURT their dogs and
WANT YOU to HURT YOUR DOG so's you'll BE
LIKE THEM, HURTING YOUR DOG?
THAT'S NORMAL here abHOWETS, paulie.
We're dealing with PSYCHOPATHS, SADISTS and
SCHIZOPHRENICS, and your posts PROVES IT.
> Paul and Muttley (almost fully recovered
> from Arbitrary Praise Neurosis)
NO PROBLEMO, paulie. I'll STILL WORK WITH
YOU. The least you could do is TRY to finish your
"EXXXPERIMENT" with NOT HURTING Muttley
accordin to The Method and get your own 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS
otherWIZE I'll get the heel HOWETA THIS BUSINESS.
Perhaps your problem is you think BEIN NICE
to your dog someHOWE diminishes your
masculinity, eh, paulie?
PERHAPS you wasn't much of a man to begin with.
<SNIP>
>> Since then I have used very gentle methods with him,
THAT'S A LIE. I can CITE paulie's POSTED CASE
HISTORY *(as always) if you LIKE <{}: ~ ) >
>> and although he still pulls excesively,
Dogs PULL to ESCAPE their ABUSERS CHOKIN THEM.
>> he has proven to be a very sweet dog who ignores other dogs'
>> snarkiness and shows remarkable calmness and stability.
Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
90 From: Sionnach
Date: Mon, Oct 9 2006 1:19 am
Email: "Sionnach" <rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
*I* was thanking the Deity that the NCR trail
was not my choice of hiking area today!!!!
Sorry, Paul, but the gloves are now off, because if I HAD
chosen the NCR trail today - rather than another local trail-
you would have been putting ***MY*** beloved dogs at
risk of serious injury or death. ***MY*** DOGS.
What the ****ING HELL is **WRONG** with you???
Your dog, which you have repeatedly admitted you can't
control, just made a near-lethal unprovoked attack on
another dog in obedience class, and you TOOK HIM
OUT ON THE TRAILS WHERE THERE ARE OTHER
DOGS?????
You do that again, when my dogs are around, and he attacks
one of them, you won't have to worry about having him put
down - I will either break his spine or choke him to death
right then and there.
I'm dead ****ing serious, Mr. Schoen.
----------------------
>> There are times I have to be a bit firm with him,
paulie means when his BRIBERY didn't work:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon
that an expected reward not received is experienced
as a punishment and can produce extensive and
persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)."
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV
"Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative
physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of
Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy
of Sciences, Moscow:
The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and
freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared
with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the
resistance to coercion," respectively, described by
contem****ary ethologists.
On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose,"
conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive
emotions arising in connection with the perfection of
a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at
a given moment, serve as the reinforcement.
The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a
phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction
as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was
demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the
state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in
rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical
activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e.,
by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man.
Simonov PV</h4>
Publication Types:<ul><li>Review</li><li>Review,
tutorial</li></ul>PMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681</blockquote>
<doctype>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=2215892&am
p;form=6&db=m&Dopt=bNeurosciBehavPhysiol1990May-Jun;
20(3):230-5
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And
Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The
Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies.
"All animals learn best through play," Lorenz.
B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment
Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused,
actually has been proven not effective at long-
term behavioral change, and creatures will find
other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom
and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter
1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states:
If we no longer resort to torture in what we call
the civilized world, we nevertheless still make
extensive use of punitive techniques in both
domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for
good reasons. Nature if not God has created man
in such a way that he can be controlled punitively.
People quickly become skillful punishers (if not,
thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative
positive measures are not easily learned.
The need for punishment seems to have the sup****t
of history, and alternative practices threaten the
cherished values of freedom and dignity.
Fear involved with punishment causes frustration:
with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy.
Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive
reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior
have proved very valuable.
----------------------------
Author and professional dog trainer LeeCharlesKelley wrote:
Thanks, Jerry, that's a helpful bit from the guy
who started it all. This shows what we've been
saying: that teaching the dog to play fetch,
regardless of its usefulness in the eventual
search part of the training program, is a
powerful motivator and reinforcer.
Of course these idiots (pardon my being blunt)
don't see using food and clickers as being a
form of coercion. Maybe they've been hypnotized
by Karen Pryor, et al:
Freeze Frame <{}: ~ ) >
From: canis55 <cani...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 1999/09/28
Subject: Dear Marilyn Re. Ness
Dear Marilyn,
I just visited your updated site. The two Ness pages are great.
Freezing the video frames to reveal the emotional impact a
leash correction has on a dog was a wonderful idea.
Lee Kelley did something similar to a Brian Kilcommon video.
The difference is we were focusing on the emotional impact a
leash correction has on the trainer. When you do this to a training
video you can clearly see the tremendous emotional charge some
of these trainers are getting from hurting dogs.
It's a strange business, this dog training. I wonder what motivates
any of us to engage in it. I'm suspicious of anyone who says they
do it because they love dogs. I know a lot of people who claim to
love what dogs represent to them, and yet they don't become trainers.
I don't think this is because they love something else more.
I think there is a difference between loving what dogs represent
to us and loving what training them creates in us or even creates
in them for that matter.
It's a complicated process and perhaps many of us have lost sight
of what we're doing. I read books and articles that matter of factly
explain how to systematically inflict pain on dogs in an effort to
create a desire to perform tasks that I often see dogs performing of
their own accord. I know many of these behaviors can be shaped
and encouraged to the same degree of reliability without all the
violence and pain.
Where they can't (if that's the case), I wonder why we think
a dog should perform a task that is so repugnant to its nature,
that we must resort to violence and coercion to compel them
to participate.
Maybe I have far too much respect for dogs, but when I read
this stuff it sounds like slavery and involuntary servitude to me.
I can't see much difference between what we're doing to them
(for their own good) and what my country men did to the African
peoples for nearly half a century.
It's hard for me to accept that I'm surrounded by so much
madness, but I have to go with my heart on this one. Most
of what we demand from dogs--if not all of it--will be offered
willingly and enthusiastically if we only learn how to request
it in a manner they can comprehend.
If it turns out that I have to attack a dog to get it to do or to not do
something, then maybe the dog isn't supposed to do what I think it
should.
The whole thing's so complicated that I can't really express it. I
just know I don't like some of the stuff I'm seeing or reading about.
--
I trains'em as I sees'em.
----------------
>> but dogs really want to please people, and they live for praise.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
>> I'm sure he was abused and neglected when he was a puppy,
NOT so much as since DOG LOVERS KIDNAPPED
him and he was "RESCUED" by paulie <{}: ~ ( >
>> and then he had to fend for himself on the streets in a tough
>> neighborhood, until he was picked up by animal control. Then he
>> barely escaped being euthanized, and he went through other
>> difficult times in my care until we bonded and became the good
>> buddies we are now.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> I'm so glad to know that Muttley came through and found the
> courage to bond with you after suffering Janet's cruel treatment.
DON'T BET ON IT, Phil. If Muttley has his "druther's" he'd be
back on the street rummaging garbage cans and beggin meals
and shaggin the *****es just like HOWE ANY DOG would
PREFER than to be jerked choked and intimidated by "DOG
LOVERS" like paulie who 'occasionally' "have to be a bit firm
with him" <{}: ~ ( >
> Your bond with Muttley is stronger than anything Janet will
> ever experience with a dog, and while she and others like her
> will likely scoff at your calm approach to training dogs, I've no
> doubt that she looks upon you with a jealous eye.
You got THAT right, Phil <{}: ~ ( >
> There's no room in the dog training world for the cruel dullards
> like her who believe physical force, fear and intimidation is the
> key to successful training, but they still manage to find their way
> into it one way or another, unfortunately.
From: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 00:02:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Your Training Modality is Driving Your Dogs Crazy
Leah:
>>Is there something wrong with being curious?
Morrison:
>You're not curious, Leah. IMO, you're just wishy-washy.
Kelley:
I don't have the same history that you seem to have with Leah,
but I hardly think being open to exploring new ideas qualifies as being
"wishy-washy". To me it shows intelligence. But then, from what I've
seen, you've demonstrated a singular kind of black-and-white mentality
and a highly ignorant closed-mindedness.
Morrison:
>You keep thinking that there's some "new" method out there
> that will VOILA!, magically transform you into a great trainer,
> and overnight, too.
>
>It just doesn't work that way.
Kelley:
Actually, that's *exactly* how it worked with me. Within the
first day of using these techniques I went from becoming a run-
of-the-mill dog trainer to being pretty damn good, if I do say so
myself, and all simply by testing the techniques, just to see if
they worked.
I've said from the beginning that if I can get the kind of amazing
results I do when I'm not really a dog trainer at heart, but a writer,
then someone who's really a dog trainer at heart would become a
far better trainer than I am instantly, just by using these methods.
Somewhere along the line, however, I discovered a dirty little secret
about the mentality of most dog trainers: they only *became* trainers
because they liked the feeling of power and control it gave them. If
that's the case with you, then you definitely wouldn't like natural dog
training because it ultimately teaches a dog how to control his own
behavior. In fact in some ways, it forces you to turn your need for
control over to the dog because the method only works when you put
your trust in a dog's natural instincts instead of fighting against them
all the time. That's because when you put yourself in alignment with
a dog's instincts, the dog will naturally obey you under any and all
cir***stances because group harmony and cooperation, when properly
nurtured, are the most fundamental aspects of a dog's nature.
I came across the following quote recently, and though I have no idea
who Edward Hoagland is, I think what he says here speaks volumes:
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to
be semi-human.
The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming
partly a dog." - Edward Hoagland
Leah:
>> This "praise the dog when he misbehaves" thing keeps coming
>> up, and nobody has been able to explain it to me.
Morrison:
>That's because no one can.
Kelley:
Actually, Jerry Howe explains it pretty well. And as for the incident
I related where I praised my dog when he found a juicy chicken breast
and my praise caused him to drop it, and subsequently got him to stop
scavenging altogether, merely by praising him everytime he found
something, the answer is pretty clear. He didn't pick up that chicken
breast because he was hungry, he did it because he was looking for
something to do that would satisfy an inner emotional need, relating
to his instincts.
When I praised him, suddenly and very enthusiastically, he dropped
the chicken breast because the praise provided him with more emotional
satisfaction than the chicken breast did at that particular moment.
You could look at this as being an example of pure operant conditioning,
if you like (though you'd be wrong), but it would still mean that you
would have to give up your beliefs about what praise is and how and why
it works, and you don't strike me as someone who's capable of even
*questioning* your beliefs, let alone capable of giving them up.
Morrison:
> every single method out there is based on CC and/or OC. That's a fact.
Kelley:
No, it's not a fact. The only reason it seems factual to you is because
the basic premise of behavioral science is tautological in nature (and
also because, IMO, you have a tiny mind). In my estimation it's more
likely that there are little green men on Mars than that what you think
is operant conditioning is what's really taking place when a dog learns
*anything*. Dogs do not learn things by association or by repetition or
by trial and error, but through their emotions, pure and simple. Even
Pavlov said: "Positive emotions arising in connection with the perfection
of a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at a given moment,
serve as the reinforcement." Of course, even Pavlov got it wrong on the
most basic level, since there really is no such thing as a reinforcement,
but that's another story for another day.
>> Good luck with your new dog.
DOG TRAININ AIN'T LUCK, Phil, IT'S SCIENCE:
"LUCK is for SUCKERS. NEVER make a SUCKER'S
BET," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY <{}: ~ ) >
>> Paul and Muttley
>
> Thank you very much. We're having so much fun together, and
> his training is coming along just fine. Hopefully, if I get the luck
> you've wished upon us we'll bond as closely as you and Muttley
> have very soon.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
|
