"Rocky" <3dogs@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Fri9AB0838275E80australianshepherdca@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Running Wolf <pavolc@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
>>> > BTW: what does it mean "put down"?
>>>
>>> euthanize.
>>
>> A "little bit" rough punishment, isn't it?
>
> Feel free to expound.
ALL aggression is FEAR. ALL FEAR is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
like jerking choking shocking bribing crating surigcally ***ually
mutilating
and all the other abusive idiotic ignorameHOWES backwards pathteic
miserable stinkin rotten things you DOG LOVERS PREFER to do to
FORCE CON-TROLL over your fearful deathly ill dogs.
> If you were the owner, what would you do?
He MIGHT try TRAININ his dog NEARLY INSTANTLY
simply by DOIN EVERY THING EXXXACTLY PRECISELY
OPPOSITE of HOWE you animal murderin child abusin punk
thug coward MENTAL CASES PREFER.
LIKE THIS:
Here's a professional dog trainer of thirty years experience:
From: BNTDO...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
jho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Monday, June 03, 2002 2:22 PM
Subject: Update
Hi Jerry,
Just an update to let you know how things are going.
Hunter is doing really great thanks to you and your
training manual.
I cancelled the appointment with the new vet to get
him re-evaluated for aggression. all weekend long I
had kids run by the fence to try and make him bark.
He didn't!
Tonight we are going to PetsMart to work on his
dog aggression but even that is going good for him.
I have less and less of a problem with him in my
vehicle. He doesn't try so hard to protect
it from the four wheeled monsters that go by.
I think soon I'll be able to leave his window open when
we go down the road and he won't try to jump out at
the cars that go by.
I have shared the manual with several dog owners
that I know and even a group of dog trainers.
Thank you again.
Kay
From: "Jerry Howe" <jho>
To: <BNTDO>
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: Update
Have your vet call me if he's interested in behavior.
XXX/OOO. Jerry.
---------------
From: BNTDO...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
jho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always
Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL
GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized."
Dear Jerry,
It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are that
maligning you and your training manual but tell them
from me that it does work.
Hunter is just doing so well even the people who advocated
putting him down are impressed with him.
I even started using it with the neighbor's dog. I went over
there to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him
for growling at me. I told her to tell him what a good boy he
is instead. Lo and behold he stopped growling and I could
do his nails.
All 4 feet.
My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull method
and my other dog was trained with treats. Hunter has gotten
his enthusiasm back for his training and I couldn't be more
pleased.
He even tried to kiss a child the other day.
Major break through.
This is the dog that a few months ago tried to eat the kids
through the fence. I can now take him in the car with me
again without him trying to chase cars through the wind****eld.
So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of dog training
is Do No Harm.
The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first
rule.
Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down. Hunter was
diagnosed aggressive and he is going to stay alive and
by my side where he belongs.
Thank you so much.
Kay
-----------------
From: jho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(The Puppy Wizard)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 06:07:52 -0000
Subject: "Your Method Takes Positive Training To The Next Level
And Should Really Be Used By All Tainers Who Call Themselves
Trainers,"
Kay Pierce.
From: <BNTDO>
To: <jho>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Wits end Training
Jerry,
I started Hunter on his training using your manual
and training method. What a marked difference in
just a few hours.
I had him in my van and just using the sound with
his remote trainer and telling him he's a good dog
when he started looking like he was going to bark
at a car worked great.
He only barked 2 or 3 times. Then I took him to a
spot that we had used years ago to train, Jerry I
have hope that I can have my happy dog back soon.
And not this tense unhappy creature I live with now.
He was so happy today. I am looking forward to
getting the machine so that he can stay that way.
Thank you,
Kay Pierce
-------------------
From: <BNTDO>
To: <jho>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:54 PM
Subject: Making Progress
Hello Jerry,
Hunter and I started working the recall and family
pack exercise today. On leash and in the house
he has a perfect recall.
And I think he really started to relax and enjoy
himself I swear he was laughing.
I had taught him to go to the heel position when he
comes to me years ago. And over the past few months
I have had to tell him to go there. Today he flew into
the heel position each and every time without me saying
a word to him about it.
He has never bounced like that before.
I trained him using conventional methods with a choker and
pinch collar. Over the past few days we have been using his
regular collar. I can tell that he enjoys it more.
As I mentioned before I am a dog trainer and when I trained
my latest dog I used all positive reinforcements techniques.
When I trained for that I had been amazed at the results.
Your method takes positive training to the next level and
should really be used by all trainers who call themselves
trainers.
My Hunter is concentrating on me and not on the treat he
thinks he wants. My other dog wants treats before she'll
do anything.
As soon as I get Hunter straightened out she's next.
Thank you so much,
Kay Pierce
------------------
From: <BNTDO>
To: <jho>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:50 PM
Subject: Head Hunter
Dear Jerry,
Just thought I would write to let you know how
well Hunter is doing. He had been trained using
the conventional methods for obedience. He had
gotten used to a choker and a pinch collar.
Alot of pain and a lot of jerking around. I had also
tried using positive reinforcement methods that I
had been trained in. He was so busy looking for
the treat that he didn't really want to work.
So I went back to using the pinch collar on him
and also a gentle leader when we were in public.
Slowly by degrees his behavior got worse and
he did deserve his reputation as a vicious dog.
The vet had recommended that he be put down.
I was in a panic when I found your web site.
Thanks! He is now the happy dog that I first
started out with 5 years ago. I am a professional
trainer and it was distressing to me that I could not
help my own dog. I had been told that some dogs
don't respond to any kind of training and that a
vicious dog can never be trusted again.
I disagree!
Hunter is a sight hound and now I can take him
with me and he doesn't chase cars as much
anymore which is one of his main problems.
We are working on the dog aggression thing.
And I am confident that will be successful too.
I also have your BIOSOUND machine and that
too is working good. I know of several rescue
groups that would benefit from it.
This is rather long I know but it comes from the
heart. My Head Hunter Green and I have together
along time and have been through so much together.
Thank you for helping me save his life.
Kay Pierce
--------------------
From: <Caninesanctu>
To: <BNTDO>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Jerry the jerk howe
Kay if you only knew what a jerk howe is it's either
his way or your wrong no matter what training method
you use. In a post re: adopting a shelter dog he
stated "fu*k Buster" if you want I can refer you to the
post.
He's nothing but a blowhard and if he was closer I
would pay him a visit. He used your post from July
in his rebuttal
Bob Garrett
From: BNTDO...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Caninesanctu...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Jerry the jerk howe
I have to strongly disagree that Jerry is a jerk. I am a
dog trainer and I have been for almost 30 years. I
believe strongly in positive reinforcement. My youngest
was trained using treats and praise.
My oldest how ever was not trained that way I am ashamed
to say. The result a very dangerous dog.
He has problems with barrier and dominance aggression. A
year ago he put a hole in my leg that took weeks to heal.
When the vet and all of my friends advocated putting him
down I found Jerry's website. I was looking for a natural
way to calm my dog and train him all over again as well.
You say Jerry is a jerk well I have talked to him on the
phone and consulted him about his training methods.
I really grilled him before I even considered using his
methods.
He loves dogs. Using his methods my Head Hunter is
now a very sweet dog. I get kisses instead of growls.
When he growls or even looks like he is going to bark
I tell him what a good dog he is and right away he shuts
up, looks at me like I'm nuts. But doesn't try to eat anyone.
I am happy to say that the vet thinks I have him on major
drugs. I don't! I still use a muzzle on him when I have to
take him to iffy places. But hey, I know he is now a sugar.
And the most im****tant thing he is happy again.
It's a free country and you are entitled to your opinion.
I have mine.
Sincerely
Kay
---------------------
"Linda" <llindaleedan...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:3c317fe4.0301072210.7f7ef069@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
I do not know what started the problem but he came
aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
and could play with any dog. He was well socialized
ad I took him with me everywhere.
At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
it was not working on his aggression problem.
I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then
suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not
working as he was becoming more aggressive.
I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph.D. 400 miles
away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to
use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.
I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG
ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE
LEASH", ETC looking for help.
We finally went to Purdue University Small Animal Behavior
Clinic and they said he had fear aggression, punishment
would not work, use the gentle leader and when out walking
and he got stressed have the people stop until he could get
in control using treats,and work on clicker training.
At that point I knew more about clicker training and using
the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he
would not come when I called him and would run away when I
tried to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the
neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and women who
hasn't trained her dog"
I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two were
so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one said I
should give up on him and kill him but they would say "You
have to realize he is dangerous and you are responsible for
him."
***(You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sun****ne
DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.)
As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.
He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.
The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
I had been working for 18 month!
Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next
I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
can sound and he looked at me like uhn?
I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
-the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
on by.
When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
me like "you must be out of your mind"
The results can make a believer!!!Three weeks since
beginning the Wits End Training Manual program I walked
him without the gentle leader in a busy shopping area with
many dogs.
He just seemed to not notice any one.
When people talked to him or ask his name he would
look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.
I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
enjoy life out in public.
If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
and had to be killed. Through all this he never growled
at me, guarded his toys or food or showed any sign of
aggression with me.
My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!!
I know most people would have given up on him a long time
ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ
but only with the right approach-sound and praise.
I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!
---------------
From: Linda Daniel
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression
Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
save so many lives. I know at times I was so frustrated I
thought of giving up on Sun****ne but of course I never would
have but many people would have. The world just does not
know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
solve problems.
We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
-just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
you could meet us would be great. I drive so I would be
happy to come to you anytime anywhere!
We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.
He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
those on rollerblades! I have always used a gentle leader
in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!
Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose. He never
pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
a hard time getting him going--at times I think he could
smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.
I can never thank you enough for giving Sun****ne back!!!!!
I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
a problem with other people and dogs.
I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
and not move until we backed away-
- can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
until I get his attention with treats.
They also suggested the possibilty of using drugs-prozac-
but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.
-------------------------------------
As you've seen, EVERY POSTER HERE is a dog abusin mental case.
Here's more from your newfHOWEN dog abusin punk thug coward
mental case pal and illegal doggy day care / agility trainin FRAUD
an SCAM ARTIST matty a.k.a. Rocky:
From: Rocky <2dogsREM...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 24 Jul 2004 04:00:53 GMT
Local: Fri, Jul 23 2004 11:00 pm
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?
Cam said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> Everything he preaches is very positive, no
> correction, no punishment, all praise and love.
You are very wrong.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky <2d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 23 Nov 2003 02:40:42 GMT
Subject: Re: house training
steve braun said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I dont like the insinuations that i am abusing
> my dog when i am NOT.
Then you may want to ignore the Puppy Wizard/Jerry Howe.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky <3da...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 16 Aug 2002 18:40:54 GMT
Subject: Re: training a dog...
nancyj wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> The pressure meant a GOOD possibility if she could
> just push up hard enough, I'd understand. I did
> eventually <G>. I switched to a light tap!
Yup, once a dog learns to sit, a light tap
works as a reminder when they "forget".
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
But "NEVER HIT your dog", eh, matty?
From: "Nevyn" <greatd...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:05:45 +0800
Subject: Re: puppy wizzards training manual.
G'DAY STEVE.
I used to be like you.
Then I found a book...it was called... the
wits end dog training manual.... and then
there was light..and perfectly trained dogs.
--
Thankyou,
Nevyn
Nevyn E.D.
Veterinary Nurse & Animal Trainer
greatd...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Yu agonna get whats comin' to you...for
all the bad bad things you to do your...dog"
________________________
"steve braun" <twopointerp...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:2d60c10a.0311231915.68b1241d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> twopointerp...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(steve braun) wrote in message
<news:2d60c10a.0311231219.d2cf140@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>...
> > Hello, Mr. puppy wizzard, how do i find a copy of
> > your manual. Do you have a link that takes me to it?
>
> > I think i would like to read it.
>
> > Now i have another question for you in regards to
> > walking your dog. How do you feel about the gentle
> > leader? I bought one for each of my pups and the
> > difference in walking them is unbelievable. If you are
> > not sure what the gentle leader is check out their web
> > site at www.premier.com. If you are as good as you say
> > you are i want to read your manual.
> > thanks,
> > Steve
> > P.s. by the way my pup doesnt pee as soon as i put
> > him in his crate its after he's been in for a while
> > and cant hold it anymore that he pee's
> Howdy, jerry,
> well i started reading your manual, Im going to
> perfectly honest with you I thought last night when
> i started reading your posts you were full of crap
> but the more i read the more i could tell that you
> really do care about dogs. That is why asked for
> a copy of your manual.
>
> I really like your analogy on barking that was very
> interesting and gave it a perspective i never even thought
> of. As far as your praising the dogs when they are
> misbehaving i still dont understand how that works (i
> didnt get all that far in the manual yet.
>
> But i must say my female was clawing at the couch so i
> praised her like you say to do, i praised her twice for
> it and she stopped and came over to me.
>
> So i think what you have to say has merit, And for one
> am anxious to finish the book and get started because
> i love my dogs and really am looking forward to interacting
> with them on a positive note all of the time.
>
> This may be a little premature jerry, but
> Thank you
> Steve
Rocky wrote:
> Robin said in rec.pets.dogs.health:
> > Jerry, you give the lying dog abusing punk thug coward
> > mental cases too much credit for the ability to influence
Naaah, The Amazing Puppy Wizard was just BAITING these lying
dog abusing punk thug coward mental cases again <{); ~ ) >
> You really are a piece of work.
INDEEDY, matty. Robin studied and followed the INSTRUCTIONS
in her FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual and RE****TED
her 100% NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS RIGHT HERE on The
Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual Forums And SCHOOL Of HARD KNOCKS
And HUMAN And ANIMAL BEHAVIOR RESEARCH
LABORATORIES, matty <{); ~ ) >
You're settin in it <{); ~ ) >
> Keep this out of the health groups, 'kay?
Dogs DIE from separation anXXXIHOWESNESS, matty, JUST
LIKE HOWE your own DEATHLY ILL dog Rocky is DYIN from
STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE aka The Puppy
Wizard's SYNDROME, on accHOWENT of you're a lyin dog abusin
punk thug coward MENTAL CASE, matty, and you can't post here
abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE <{); ~ ) >
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
\
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have,
> Solo joined in and then lunged to the end of the
>leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Xns92C1EC10BFE7australianshepherdca@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rosa Palmén wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> Anybody else got bilingual dogs?
Long ago my Hebrew was pretty good - but now I
only use "Chutza"(throat clearing 'ch') - "Out" when
it's reallyreally im****tant that my dogs get away from
something.
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It A Sharp
Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn't
Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't Take It. I Still
Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My
Cat," Melanie Lee Chang * mch...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Canine Behavioral Genetics Project
University of California, San Francisco
http://psych.ucsf.edu/K9BehavioralGenetics/
From: Rocky <2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior
> One of the things that frustrates methe most about
> agility is that people seem to think that ALL dogs
> are fragile, shrinking flowers who cannot be
> corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take
correction so much to heart -- I'll try something
different. Right now, he's just getting the confidence
to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"I crate Rocky, even though he's 8.5 years old, but
only when I'm gone during summertime days -
maybe an hour at the most. (Other than hot days,
my dogs are always with me.)
While Friday has been totally reliable unsupervised
from the day I got him from a rescue, Rocky has not.
Rocky will go looking for food even in areas where
there's no possibility of food.
The good thing is that he likes his crate, runs for
it when I ask, and gets food when he's in it.
--
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAAA!!!
From: Rocky (mbon...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume
> that you are suggesting that the people knee the
> dog in the chest. If that's what you meant, just
> say it, instead of beating around the bush to avoid
> criticism from people like me. That kind of crap has
> got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods
> of dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
"dallygirl" <kwickw...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many
>cases causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of
dogs' well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
=============
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
"Don't Let Your Dog Scream. Use Your Hand To Hold
His Muzzle Closed And Tell Him To Quit Moaning,"
Sindymooreon.
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
"J1Boss" <j1b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey
<mhhea...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
clicked their heels and said:
> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.
yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
========
Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> <j...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, clicked their
> heels and said:
>
> Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say
> I beat dogs, choke dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks
> for your clarification.
responding to my own post, I had to go back and look
at the original post, to remind myself what "we" are all
accused of doing:
"screaming, choking,
shocking, pinching, beating
the living crap out of your dogs"
Scream? no
Choke? no
Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort
by a prong collar, go ahead, but unless you have first
hand experience with one, your opinion means nothing
Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists
-------------------------
Here's HOWER DOG LOVER pal sgt grant teebon, RAAF:
"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds
To Pain And Punishment, High Tolerance For
Correction, Escalation Of Correction To A Level
Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish Him,
Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog
Will Want To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon,
RAAF.
Here's HOWER DOG LOVER pal captain
arthur haggerty, USArmy K-9 Corps:
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK"
Makes A ResoundingSound Distraction: "When
You Chuck The Dog The Sound Will Travel Up
The Mandible To The Ears And Give A Popping
Sound To The Dog."
lying frosty dahl writes:
"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less
tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking
them more sharply.
With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'
Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the
stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to
the dummy.
Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog,
Now you are ready to progress to what most
people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch.
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent
that resisting your will fades in im****tance.
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb;
even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that
Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy
against its lips and pinching its ear.
if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing
and the collar, even the buckle on the collar.
Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in"
==============
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"
Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider.
"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by
the mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.)
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog,
as well as the house, if you really pour it on him."
"Housebreaking Problems:
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"
Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the op****tunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid
correction.
When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.
It is im****tant to your future relation****p that you
do not rush at him and start swinging before you get
hold of him.
When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much puni****ng.
Be consistent in your handling.
To have a pup almost house-broken and then force
him to commit an error by not providing an op****tunity
to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will
make your job easier.
The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.
For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.
The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves
you no other course than to punish him sufficiently
to convince him that the satisfaction of his
wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the
punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house.
An indelible impression can sometimes be made
by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration,
then leaving him tied by the mess he's made so you
can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish
him again for the same thing.
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment.
It will be better for your dog, as well as the house,
if you really pour it on him.
---------------------
AIN'T GOT NO AGENDAS HERE, SEE??
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
http://tinyurl.com/5m6ppt
"J1Boss" <j1b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
Janet Boss
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL
cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog's
been sprayed in the face and the dog won't
know HOWE COME IT was MACED?
janet CONtinues:
> > My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.
> > I don't have anything against electronic bark collars, but they
> > should be used in conjunction with actually working at training
> > your dog(s).
They're DUMB ANIMALS these MENTALLY ILL LYING
DOG ABUSERS HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER.
-------------------
LIKE THIS:
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
--------------------
From: BethF (d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
Subject: Re: to treat or not to treat
Date: 2002-01-14 12:50:27 PST
> "Jerry Howe" <jho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
<news:8TI%7.10635$du.948527@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>...
> > And you jerk and choke your dogs on pronged spiked pinch
> > choke collars lock them in boxes and call that training
> > and spray Binaca in their eyes to quite their crate anxiety barking...
I dont' jerk or choke my dog (the little one is
too little yet for a pinch collar). They simply
wear pinch collars.
It prevents any jerking or choking on their part.
I do crate my dogs - the big one only at the dog
club and to travel, and the little one so he can
become accustomed to being in a crate.
He is learning to enjoy it and to use it as a place
to rest from the playing that he and Kavik do
..
I used binaca to quiet Kavik's in class whining
that disturbed the class. It would be quite difficult
to binaca a dog that is in a crate.
I did hit him in the eye accidentally, and stopped
using it at that time. Jerry, have you NEVER made
an error in training the dogs you have trained?
How many dogs have you trained exactly?
Can you list some references here - I
would like to contact some of your former
clients to get a reference or two?
------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.
-----------------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
"Well, actually the binaca worked but after i
got him in the eye it was not a possibility to
be using that."
"Actually, the most common use of this technique
(and it is quite common) is with TABASCO sauce
either mixed with water in a spray bottle or on a rag
that you can stick in the dogs mouth instead of spraying
(after our experience I would suggest this method if I
was going to use this technique again). My dog likes
tabasco so that didnt' work for us.
Binaca was suggested as an alternative from a very
well respected dog trainer from the lower 48, however
I don't think she counted on his flailing his head in a
desperate attempt to get away from the sprayer causing
me to miss."
------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
"BethF" <d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:uohnj3r4a4e85e@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.
--------------------
"BethF" <b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkfr257e1a@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.
Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.
--------------
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution Will
Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
AND LIKE THIS:
Here's tommy sorenson of sorenson's Retriever PUPPY MILL
and SHOCK COLLAR trainin SALES aka the miserable stinkin
lyin animal murderin child an spHOWES abusin anonymHOWES
active accute chronic life long incurable mental case punk
thug coward aka not so handsome, not so gentle, not so manly
jackass, not even jack morrison, aka joey finochiarrio aka
BIG DADDY aka DOGMAN HEELPIN dogs:
tommy sez:
At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
*not* constitute a "beating."
And then he sez:
"I don't know how big you are, kiddo, so this may
not be as easy for you as it is for me, but use
a little "knee action," that is, as the dog goes
charging by you, just give the dog a little bop
with your knee and ****n. Yep, really lean into it.
Even knock her over, if you can, but make sure to
make her think twice about ru****ng past you again -
- which is exactly what you want her to do.
Don't bother with scolding her, she'll get the message.
If it happens again, just REPEAT the knee action.
When she steps on your toes, just pick up your foot
abruptly and ****ge her with your knee. Again, no
scolding is necessary here, so you don't have to
worry about her "over-reacting."
I don't think this is necessarily a lack of respect
for you, just a lack of training. That is, she just
needs *more* of it."
You mean like HOWE when you HOWEsbreak a dog an
you beat IT with a switch or heavy man's leather belt and
tie him next to his evil deed and return to BEAT HIM every
twenty minutes, tommy?
tommy SEZ:
"My objective is always to find a way that WORKS.
And if it is DANGEROUS behavior that I'm trying
to modify, behavior than can get the dog KILLED,
I will resort to ANYTHING to save him.
A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G.
Okay. Call me a cruel, inhumane, abusive bastard
if you want to, but it doesn't affect me at all.
When you've saved the lives of as many dogs as I
have, you'll learn that that's the only thing that
really matters. Saving lives and making dogs become
good citizens"
"Swatting a dog on the nose is always the wrong thing to do."
> Or do you think he got off easy?
Perhaps we should just KILL HIM.
LIKE THIS:
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
----------------
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
----------------
AND LIKE THIS:
I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?
"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.
No different tune," ~Emily
~emily is a vivisectionist for a med research laboratory.
------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
"After Numerous Training Cl*****, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars
Sally Hennessey <greyho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63h8ekqiforibadrff2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.
The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unim****tant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.
What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.
I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.
I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.
Sally Hennessey
"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv128jnumgmb2m27opr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.
I'm starting to see some similarities here.
Sally Hennessey
---------------
Here's janet's PARTNER:
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context,"
sinofa***** writes:
> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,
No, there was ONLY WON quote.
> > took pieces of them out of context,
Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?
> > cobbled them together,
No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.
> > then added his own words:
"Neatly," and "Smartly."
> > and a fake signature.
"sinofa*****" instead of sionnach.
> > Which is exactly what he did.
INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.
> > The actual quote is misleading
That so?
> > when taken out of context,
We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...
> > and Jerry's faked "quote"
The WON sinofa***** totally DENIES.
> > is downright meaningless.
Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.
Here's Jerry's version
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofa*****.
Here's yours:
"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
See?
Here's HOWER DOG LOVER PAL an janet's
REAL LIFE IN PERSON "students" paul an Muttley:
Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
It is a shame that Muttley will probably be put
down (his appointment is next Wednesday),
Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
Hello everyone:
If you have followed some of my posts, you know
something about the ongoing story of Muttley, the
large GSD/Chow dog I have been trying to adopt
or place in a better home.
I will add a bit more history later in this post.
Last Tuesday, toward the end of Janet's obedience
class, Muttley and I had just finished fairly successfully
performing a sit/stay/come routine, and then he was
sitting by my side.
The final routine was to be a "down", which Muttley
has had some difficulty with, and frankly I have not
had the time to work with him much on that.
I was kneeling at his side, trying to hold his collar
while pu****ng his front legs down to the position,
while he resisted. Suddenly he lunged, knocking
me over onto the parking lot, and I lost grip of the
leash as I reflexively broke my fall.
Muttley took the op****tunity to attack a young black
male Lab to my left, and it was a very brutal attack.
Janet and the instructors tried to gain control, and as
soon as I could get to my feet I grabbed the leash and
pulled him off.
That was the end of the class, and the other dog,
Bernie, was taken to an animal hospital for treatment.
When everyone had left, Janet counseled me about
what should be done about Muttley.
She said this was more than ordinary aggression,
and only intensive (and expensive) one on one
training would have any chance at working, and
in any case, he was not suited to group training.
She advised me that Muttley could be dangerous,
and she recommended that he be euthanized.
"They can't all be saved".
<snip>
--------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
<snip>
If I did not have to worry about my cat, I would
probably keep him, and I am certain I could avoid
any more dangerous episodes. I probably would
not have taken him to obedience cl***** at this time
if that was not such a difficult issue, and if people
here had not essentially shamed me into doing so.
Then he would only be a bratty dog with a mind of
his own, but he would not have been identified as
dangerous.
--------------------------
BWEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
Here's HOWER DOG LOVER PAL an janet's
REAL LIFE IN PERSON "student" paul:
#2 - 6/05/07
>> When I was training him under Janet's supervision
>> I was instructed to give it a ? firm yank as a correction.
> I advised you to use a prong collar, not give firm
> yanks on a chain choke collar. I hate the things.
>> She was able to get his attention with
>> just a quick tug, but I had to yank on it
>> hard enough to lift him off his feet to get
>> him to respond. Looking back now, I think
>> it was based on his fear, which he had for
>> her (as an unknown), but not for me
>> (whom he had learned to trust).
> He wasn't afraid of me. He knew I was a
> confident trainer. Fear has no place in dog
> training, as I told you THEN.
> Janet
It seems to me that applying stern corrections, by
popping a choker chain, prong collar, or whatever,
is a way to ensure compliance by instilling a fear
of further punishment.
Sure, if it is administered very consistently
by a confident trainer, the dog soon learns
to obey. There was no positive reinforcement,
so what remains is negative.
Also, I recall the time you were going to show me
how I could get Muttley to take his rawhide treat
from me without lunging for it. When you offered
it to him, he refused to take it. This IMHO is likely
a fear behavior.
Things have changed a lot since then, and I have
learned a lot, and Muttley has settled down quite
a bit. I probably still give him too much freedom
to think on his own, but that's just my way of
doing things, and that's probably not going to
change much. He may never win an obedience
medal, but I don't think he is dangerously out
of control, either.
Paul and Muttley
----------------
"I thought I was told that the way to get the dog to go
down was to make him sit and then step on the leash.
That was awkward and didn't seem to work.
I will confess that I only tried the "down" position
once or twice at home, and I also often used it
instead of "Off" when I wanted him to stop
jumping on me or elsewhere I didn't want him to be.
I had to give him corrections every few seconds,
and also just about kick him, to keep him at my
left side.
Muttley is really a very sweet and loving dog, but
he needs more socialization with other dogs. However,
it is very likely that I will have him put down in a week."
Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
It is a shame that Muttley will probably be put
down (his appointment is next Wednesday),
-----------------------
THAT'S quite a SUCCESS STORY, ain't it, paulie?
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
HERE'S HOWE COME:
Subject: Re: redirected aggression
Date: 4/11/07
"Janet Boss" <janet@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:janet-730AB8.17321511042007@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
seems I have been dealing with this a bit lately.
Dog to dog and dog to person,, with dogs who are
obviously overstimulated by what's in front of them.
What's in front of them varies from people at the door
to dogs in their path or directly in their face. The dogs
in question all have very poor self control.
I have dog(s) with not-so-great-natural self control,
so it's something we constantly work on. We don't
have redirected stuff going on, because we have enough
obedience to avoid it.
While I know that's the big answer for the dogs in
question as well, I'm curious what things people have
found useful to redirect/focus/gain attention from
drivey dogs or just very distracted of over-the-top dogs.
We're having success with my recommendations, but I'm
always open to something novel that may be the hot ticket.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
-------------------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
"dallygirl" <kwickw...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many
>cases causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of
dogs' well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
=============
SEE??
We AIN'T GOT nodoGdameneD agendas here, do we <{}: ~ ( >
|
